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garry
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 1033
Location: switzerland
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jonny
Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 3004
Location: Minnesota
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 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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That's just incredible.
Well, Vista is turning out to be all I expected it to be. Lots of flashing lights and bells as an excuse for cramming even more evil into the OS. I guess I'm sticking with 2k for another five years. |
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majkinetor
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 3626
Location: Belgrade
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jonny
Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 3004
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Monad? State of the art? I don't want to get into a rant, but we've been doing it for years in Linux, and Windows could only get a shell worth doing anything in by installing Linux ports of Bash (and co.). With Vista they're finally catching up, and trying to pass it off as innovative.
Show me something new that Monad (or Vista in general, for that matter) introduces that 1) Linux or Mac haven't already done, and 2) demonstrably improves some aspect of one's personal computing environment. |
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majkinetor
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 3626
Location: Belgrade
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Do you have console that have in its scripting environment access to enitire framework exposed by Operating System, naturaly ? Do you have piping and redirection that transfer objects not text ? Bash and *nx shell alternatives are not object oriented. You can't count, ofc, Perl, PYthong, Lua and other things ppl use for scripting as those are not native. Power SHell is another word for dotNet interactive programming. Everything you can do using any of CLI languages can be done in Monad, or to be more precise, will be available using Monad shell one day. Check this out for example:
| Quote: | msh> $window = new-object Windows.Forms.Form
$window.text = "This is a Windows form!"
$button = new-object Windows.Forms.Button
$button.text = "Click me!"
$window.controls.add($button)
$window.showDialog() |
Read the tutorial anyway, in entire course of it there is comparison with Linux shell as the author is Linux user.
This is good conclusion:
| Quote: | | This is truly a rare victory for Microsoft, and I implore my colleagues in the Linux community to watch closely and keep an eye on the Microsoft prompt. |
BTW, Monad is not part of Vista, its for future versions of MS OSes.
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jonny
Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 3004
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| majkinetor wrote: | | Do you have console that have in its scripting environment access to enitire framework exposed by Operating System, naturaly ? |
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you trying to say that Windows' interface is now more open and accessible than Linux's? 
| majkinetor wrote: | | Do you have piping and redirection that transfer objects not text ? Bash and *nx shell alternatives are not object oriented. |
OO is not a practical improvement, it's just a different (read: trendy) paradigm, and therefore a matter of preference. And besides that, OO is available in Linux.
| majkinetor wrote: | | You can't count, ofc, Perl, PYthong, Lua and other things ppl use for scripting as those are not native. |
Oh, of course. Those don't count, because they're separate entities and have nothing to do with the "core" of Linux... whereas Bash is the "official" shell and is the only thing that can be compared to.
Except that Bash is no more a part of Linux than cmd.exe is. Linux is a kernel. Whatever tools one chooses to use with it can be considered intertwined or separate depending on one's viewpoint. The GNU tools are considered more "official" simply because they are very mature and widely used.
Thus, it's Monad vs. the entire community of Linux-developed scripting languages and environments. This isn't unfair, because Microsoft made it this way. They completely isolate certain parts of their OS and only allow restricted third-party innovation. Up until now, the Windows shell was, literally, a joke. Very few groups cared about the shell even if they could have developed anything new in that area. Now Microsoft is still monopolizing, and they pay for it with neverending inferiority.
In short, yes, they do count.
| majkinetor wrote: | Check this out for example:
| Quote: | msh> $window = new-object Windows.Forms.Form
$window.text = "This is a Windows form!"
$button = new-object Windows.Forms.Button
$button.text = "Click me!"
$window.controls.add($button)
$window.showDialog() |
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It doesn't look any simpler than gui's I've written in Ruby or Python. Plus, in Linux you aren't restricted to the interface and methods that the Windows pantheon has so graciously provided you with. I use Gtk because it's there, but there are a number of toolkits and you can always write one yourself.
| majkinetor wrote: | | Read the tutorial anyway, in entire course of it there is comparison with Linux shell as the author is Linux user. |
I think I will now, if only to learn more about it. Just because he's a Linux user, though, doesn't make him an authority. Would you trust my evaluations for that reason alone? |
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majkinetor
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 3626
Location: Belgrade
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| jonny wrote: | | I think I will now, if only to learn more about it. |
Jonny U missed the direction.
Good direction is:
1. Learn the particular thing.
2. Discuss it.
Not
0. I know everything (implicit)
1. Discuss it
like you always do.
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jonny
Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 3004
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| I easily derived all my points from what you've told me thus far and what I already knew. I never claimed any substantial knowledge of its nature. |
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majkinetor
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 3626
Location: Belgrade
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| jonny wrote: | | Monad? State of the art? I don't want to get into a rant, but we've been doing it for years in Linux, and Windows could only get a shell worth doing anything in by installing Linux ports of Bash (and co.). With Vista they're finally catching up, and trying to pass it off as innovative. |
| jonny wrote: | | I never claimed any substantial knowledge of its nature. |
Hm... "we've been doing it for years in Linux" means you know exactly what it is. Then after this , u said you go to read tutorial.... so your behavior/arguments is really insulting as it supose that I must be very stupid saying that Monad is state-of-the-art thing while I am not using superb linux shells as "the same thing exists for years in that world" (which is also hypotetical on your side, and far from true)
Jonny you are typical kid posting on discussions like "Hej, which one is better, Linux or Windows". Its stupid Jonny, learn it already. There is not such thing in this world, its artificial. Any of them is good/bad as much as you know how to use it. Everything else is snobistic bullshit.
About OO paradigm not being better then procedural, I agree. Its metter of preferences. I don't program OO much I must admit, I tend to think about things procedural when implementation is in question and OO when structure is in question. But the philosophy of OO is much more appropriate to this world which do contains objects that does things and you don't know anything about how they do it, generaly.
Saying that Perl, AWK, Python is the same as a shell means that you didn't think about integration of shell with entire system. Shell, is part of the system and should be integrated in it 100%. You can't say that for 3th party script languages. They always have to be manuely set and integrated into the system, in most cases you must install additional libraris to support functions by OS. Contrary to that, MSH will use dotNet framework which will aslo be used to replace current Windows Subsistem (known by providing Windows API to applications), so its pretty much out of question how Monad is integrated into the system - the best it can be.
Similar is comparing Opera or Firefox when system integration is in question with IE. Yeah, they are much better, but not about integration.
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