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corrupt
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Posts: 2485
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 Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| Joy2DWorld wrote: | | 1. this pops goolgle DTS right up. |
I don't currently use Google DTS and don't plan on installing it anytime soon. Does anyone else notice a problem with Google DTS?
| Joy2DWorld wrote: | | 2) when keyhooks apply, any alt (!), or winkey (#) hotkey will cause a giant animated circle to popup (at every hotkey press/release) in *every* windows system that has the 'show mouse caret' function enabled. |
Someone actually uses that option?
| Joy2DWorld wrote: | | 3) other 'end' users may have single control activated programs, which will go crazy if your script is run on their machine. (this is what happened to my script and gave birth to this thread). |
This sounds like a bad design on the part of the other application. I'm a bit surprised to have not heard many other reports of ctrl keypresses being generated causing issues though since many games seem to use ctrl to fire weapons. Has anyone else seen this issue in applications that trigger on ctrl keypresses?
| Joy2DWorld wrote: | | 5) the fix is suggested/requested as an option, not breaking any existing script in any way. |
I think you're missing the point here. A quick fix patch for hotkeys that might have many other side effects doesn't seem to make sense without doing a lot of additional testing to determine what the side effects might be. If this additional time was taken then it might make more sense to just replace the existing method instead. Either way, it sounds like additional development and testing is required.
There's no doubt that there seems to be a side effect with the current methods in use but, as mentioned, this side effect seems to be only affecting a very small amount of applications/uses. You have already mentioned Google DTS and the show cursor option (that most people never use). Are there many other applications that you know of that experience issues with the current methods in use. Could you please provide a few more examples and an example script or two to demonstrate the issues with them?
| Joy2DWorld wrote: | | 3. can it be that I am the *only* one distrubed by this ?? |
Not likely but so far without additional examples it seems like a very small percentage. I'm not saying that I disagree that there is a compatibility issue. I'm saying that it doesn't seem like the current issue is significant enough to justify trying to rewrite some of the key functionality of AutoHotkey in comparison to working on other planned features. Maybe a few different examples might show Chris that the issue is larger than it seems to be (if that turns out to be the case)  .
Last edited by corrupt on Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Joy2DWorld
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 561
Location: Galil, Israel
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:30 am Post subject: |
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in trying to figure out why sometimes GDS is activated and sometimes not, seems relates also to how long keys are held, which key is released fist, etc. result is best described as 'random mess'.
same script as previous post, produces a variety of keypresses, including:
| Code: | 39 00A i d 0.02 9
39 00A i u 0.00 9
20 039 i d 0.02 Space
20 039 i u 0.00 Space
A4 038 i d 0.02 Alt
A2 01D i d 0.00 Ctrl
A2 01D u 0.19 Ctrl
A4 038 u 0.05 Alt
A2 01D i d 0.00 Ctrl
A2 01D i u 0.02 Ctrl
74 03F d 2.11 F5 |
which also triggers some of ctrl-ctrl programs, but seems like shouldn't with the alt being down, anyhow.
keep in mind this is exact same script as above, that also will generate ctrlctrlctrlctrl, it just depends on ???? how long/fast you press/ order/speed of release// what else is going on in your machine ???
@Chris,
can't we just have an option to not send the ctrl's ... please.....
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Joyce Jamce |
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Joy2DWorld
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 561
Location: Galil, Israel
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| corrupt wrote: | | I'm a bit surprised to have not heard many other reports of ctrl keypresses being generated causing issues though since many games seem to use ctrl to fire weapons. Has anyone else seen this issue in applications that trigger on ctrl keypresses? |
the control keys come up almost in a 'random' way. (depends on keypress speed(?) time, order of release, etc.) it might be that lockups, weird things, extra firing, etc. etc., that seems to happen 'once in a while' is the child of the ahk's generated control keys.
| Quote: | | patch for hotkeys that might have many other side effects doesn't seem to make sense without doing a lot of additional testing to determine what the side effects might be. If this additional time was taken then it might make more sense to just replace the existing method instead. |
and the perfect way to do this is **an option in ahk to use the alternate method** it allows a wide base to test and see if unexpected problems are created, or suddenly problems are eliminated.
| Quote: | | There's no doubt that there seems to be a side effect with the current methods in use but, as I mentioned, this side effect seems to be only affecting a very small amount of applications/uses. You have already mentioned Google DTS and the show cursor option (that most people never use). |
*you dont*, maybe even many 'coder types' dont (??) but many regular users DO. When distributing tools (coded on AHK) to 'end users', it's nice if conflict free... yes ?
| Quote: | | Are there many other applications that you know of that experience issues with the current methods in use. Could you please provide a few more examples and an example script or two to demonstrate the issues with them? |
have listed several in the thread. one that goes really crazy is http://activewords.com/cgi-bin/download.cgi?file=AWPlus.exe
| Quote: | | to justify trying to rewrite some of the key functionality of AutoHotkey in comparison to working on other planned features. |
maybe you've seen, with this particular fix/option that's not the issue (ie. very simple fix).
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Joyce Jamce |
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corrupt
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Posts: 2485
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:57 am Post subject: |
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Here's an example of a conflict. The following script causes the weapon to fire every time in Quake II (which is set to the default key - ctrl key) when pressing Alt + a . I would classify that as unwanted behaviour. | Code: | $!A::
send {space}
return
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This is what I get in the key history after pressing Alt + a | Quote: | VK SC Type Up/Dn Elapsed Key Window
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A4 038 d 2.47 Alt blah.ahk - Notepad
41 01E h d 0.28 A
A2 01D i d 0.00 Ctrl
A2 01D i u 0.00 Ctrl
A4 038 i u 0.00 Alt
20 039 i d 0.00 Space
20 039 i u 0.00 Space
A2 01D i d 0.02 Ctrl
A4 038 i d 0.00 Alt
A2 01D i u 0.00 Ctrl
41 01E s u 0.20 A
A4 038 u 0.05 Alt
A2 01D i d 0.00 Ctrl
A2 01D i u 0.00 Ctrl
Press [F5] to refresh. |
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corrupt
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Posts: 2485
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: |
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If for some strange reason you don't own a copy of Quake II  , a demo version (fully functional but limited number of levels available) can be downloaded here or here or from many other places. |
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Lexikos
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 7299
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Joy2DWorld wrote: | | You have tried this with packaged exemaker with later/changed source compile ? |
If you mean the existing ahk2exe with an AutoHotkeySC.bin compiled by myself, then yes. It worked fine. Did you follow corrupt's instructions for compiling?
| Quote: | are you saying that AHK as we know it is *not* really all open-source,
ie. that the exe maker is not open-source ??? |
No.. where'd you pull that from? I never suggested anything of the sort. Besides, Ahk2Exe isn't part of AutoHotkey. | README wrote: | | This is a version of the AutoIt3 compiler that has been adapted for use with AutoHotkey scripts. |
| Quote: | | actually did you miss the bit about this being an option ? |
How could I? You repeat yourself too often...
How could I? You repeat yourself too often...
| corrupt wrote: | | Someone actually uses that option? |
LOL. I don't, and I have to turn my head to see the other end of my desktop. Maybe some people like to have their cursor 1 pixel wide/high? 
I noticed something else recently - Mouse hotkeys that use ! (alt) as a modifier also generate control keypresses. This isn't suprising. However, if the script doesn't have the keyboard hook installed, it seems every time the hotkey is triggered, a control keypress is sent. Not when Alt is released; when the hotkey (!WheelUp, !WheelDown, !LButton, etc.) is triggered. | Code: | A4 038 d 1.92 Alt
A2 01D i d 0.02 Ctrl
A2 01D i u 0.00 Ctrl
A2 01D i d 0.03 Ctrl
A2 01D i u 0.00 Ctrl
A2 01D i d 0.00 Ctrl
A2 01D i u 0.02 Ctrl
A2 01D i d 0.00 Ctrl
A2 01D i u 0.00 Ctrl
A2 01D i d 0.03 Ctrl
A2 01D i u 0.00 Ctrl
A4 038 u 0.20 Alt |
That's the KeyHistory from a seperate script, after alt+scrolling the wheel several notches. Clearly the Ctrl keypresses are seen as repeated.
I only noticed this because I've been working on a script that uses it's own keyboard hook to show key history, and !WheelUp/Down to change the history length. (i.e. I was watching the history when I used !Wheel.  ) It's not an error in my script, either; try this: | Code: | !WheelUp::return
!WheelDown::return |
...and watch the key history from another script. |
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Joy2DWorld
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 561
Location: Galil, Israel
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| lexikos wrote: | | the existing ahk2exe with an AutoHotkeySC.bin compiled by myself, then yes. It worked fine. |
Is there any reason that should not work with an *older* AHKSC.bin ? (likely am missing something, and will redo from start.. but.. if you take older AHKSC.bin with newist ahk2exe... compiles scripts as normal ?) | Quote: | | I have to turn my head to see the other end of my desktop. Maybe some people like to have their cursor 1 pixel wide/high? |
Actually on *smaller* screens cursor harder to find..
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Joyce Jamce |
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Lexikos
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 7299
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Joy2DWorld wrote: | | Is there any reason that should not work with an *older* AHKSC.bin ? |
All I know is the ahk2exe that comes with AutoHotkey v1.0.47.04 works fine with AutoHotkeySC.bin files I compile from v1.0.47.04 source. I don't imagine it matters much.
Why would you be trying to use an older AutoHotkeySC.bin file with a new ahk2exe anyway? (That is, if ahk2exe even has different versions.)
| Joy2DWorld wrote: | | Actually on *smaller* screens cursor harder to find.. |
How so? If you can easily see the whole screen at once, how can you not know where the cursor is?
Besides, smaller screen does not mean finer resolution (smaller pixels.)
Generally the size of the cursor (or pixels) doesn't matter - any small movement (of the cursor) is going to attract my attention and tell me exactly where the cursor is. If I'm not moving the mouse, I don't need to know where it is.
Maybe I just have good peripheral vision. *shrug* |
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Joy2DWorld
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 561
Location: Galil, Israel
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| lexikos wrote: | | Why would you be trying to use an older AutoHotkeySC.bin file with a new ahk2exe anyway? (That is, if ahk2exe even has different versions.) |
And seems like that Q. is related to the whole "closed source" issue. If there is necessary lnk between ahk2exe and AHKSC.bin... then at some point mods will not be compileable. (if this is the case, maybe the ahk2exe has available source ??). | Quote: | | smaller screen does not mean finer resolution (smaller pixels.) |
but often it does. | Quote: | | Maybe I just have good peripheral vision. *shrug* |
indeed!
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Joyce Jamce |
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Lexikos
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 7299
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Joy2DWorld wrote: | | Quote: | | smaller screen does not mean finer resolution (smaller pixels.) |
but often it does. |
That's purely coincidental. Often it doesn't. I have a 17", 19" and 22". Listed in descending order of pixel size, that's 17", 19", 22". |
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Joy2DWorld
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 561
Location: Galil, Israel
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| lexikos wrote: | | I have a 17" |
Well, I only have a 11", but it gets the job done.
ps: On laptops and such with small screens, the resolution is usually high, but size small -> tiny cursors. Also some program's control cursor and on hires mode -> tiny cursors.
ps2: Edited the first post of this thread to reflect the current state of control keypress conflict problem. Do these side posts take away from the main message ? ie. Is thread clear enough that for ex., Chris can see the multiple ways (1) control is interefering with other programs, (2) that multi-controls *are* generated together, even (a) with single keystroke hotkey, and (b) mouse hotkey, etc. Desire *not* to repeat, but desire to make sure the important info gets thru... if this makes sense. (Suggestions on this welcome, btw.)
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Joyce Jamce |
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Joy2DWorld
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 561
Location: Galil, Israel
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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here is another conflict:
windows has an option to set up language selection using "Shift-Alt" alone to shift the langage set.
Any hooked hotkey or #IfWinActive hotkey that has "shift" as part of the hotkey (ie. "+"), switches the user's input langauge is the shift key is the last key released.
ie.
when the AHK generated "control" keypress happens (and again, there is randommess to how the controls end up being sent, based on many factors, such as what the hotkey does, (eg. send), how long keys are held down, and in what order released) when just the shift is still being held held down, it Triggers programs which use 'control+shift' is their hotkey trigger.
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Joyce Jamce |
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Lexikos
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 7299
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| Joy2DWorld wrote: | | windows has an option to set up language selection using "Shift-Alt" alone to shift the langage set. |
Surely you mean to say | Quote: | | windows has an option to set up language selection using "Ctrl + Shift" alone to shift the langage set. |
...since the control keypresses shouldn't affect Shift+Alt... Actually, Ctrl+Shift seems to be the default "Switch Keyboard Layout" shortcut. (It can be set as the "Switch Input Language" shortcut, though.)
I'm certain AutoHotkey already has code to prevent accidental triggering of the language hotkeys (but not explicit triggering - i.e. Send {LAlt down}{Shift}{LAlt up}.)
Can you give a specific example of when AutoHotkey triggers the language hotkey? | Quote: | | there is randommess to how the controls end up being sent |
Again, can you give an example? It's fairly consistent from what I've seen. | Quote: | | based on many factors, such as what the hotkey does, (eg. send) |
In the case of Send, artificial control is probably sent because the send requires control to be in the up position (it would send up before the send, and down again afterwards.) In at least one instance, control is also sent to prevent the menu bar from activating (when the state of Alt is changed during a Send.) | Quote: | | and in what order released |
iirc, the control keypresses aren't sent if Shift is already down. (Edit: on second thought, that may only be for the Win key.)
If its "based on many factors", there is definite reason to it, therefore it isn't random...
Last edited by Lexikos on Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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corrupt
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Posts: 2485
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: |
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It seems fairly consistent here also, so far...
I was a bit disappointed to see incompatibility with Quake II since it would be very handy to set up Alt + someotherkey hotkeys for various actions, team messages, etc... I guess I could bind a different key for shooting and avoid using the ctrl key for anything but the ctrl key is in a very convenient location for 3d games where the arrow keys are typically used for movement.
This issue doesn't seem to affect Quake 4 so far, but then again, the same example script I tried with Quake II had no effect at all in Quake 4. |
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Joy2DWorld
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 561
Location: Galil, Israel
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| lexikos wrote: | | Surely you mean to say windows has an option to set up language selection using "Ctrl + Shift" alone to shift the langage set. |
yes.. correct. | Quote: | | I'm certain AutoHotkey already has code to prevent accidental triggering of the language hotkeys (but not explicit triggering - i.e. Send {LAlt down}{Shift}{LAlt up}.) |
unfortunately, and as is the subject of this thread.. your certainty is in error.
| Code: |
SetTitleMatchMode, Regex
#Ifwinactive Test
+^a::
send HELLO, EH ?
return |
conflicts with the windows system and causes a language change.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | there is randommess to how the controls end up being sent |
Again, can you give an example? |
well I gave two above in the thread. Look at the key histories. same exact hotkey but pressed at different time. Different result.
| Quote: | | It's fairly consistent from what I've seen. |
please look at the thread carefully. you will see it is not. Try my examples above, you will see, depending on timing of all sorts of things (when keys are released, in what order, what the script is doing, and when, etc.), all sorts of different control key events result. this is document above in thread.
| Quote: | | iirc, the control keypresses aren't sent if Shift is already down. (Edit: on second thought, that may only be for the Win key.) |
incorrect. they are in *both* cases. Chris originally suggested this was a workaround. see above in thead. the shift does not halt the sending of the control..
also, I am about talked out on this topic. there is a confilct, it conflicts in many places, with many things. There is a suggested super simple solution, which can be added as an option and tried. If a problem like this requires such a huge effort, it's just not worth it. The fix is much easier than the time invested at this point in the thread. There are at least 2 ways that a single hotkey causes a double control event, a single hotkey also conflicts with the language selection if it is a + hotkey and that is released last or is pressed at the time the control is sent. Multiple hotkeys together generate single and double controls which conflict with the show mouse caret windows feature, and pop up control key based programs. The conflict is seen in game play etc. etc.
if more effort is needed to show a conflict/problem, the person to do that is not me.
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