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tic
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 1318
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 Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| ha. no you dont need to shut up. i like to hear everyones views. I saw a weakness in ahk and decided to write a new function to solve it. Lexikos then suggested I use some of Seans functions to achieve my goal. I then said that i was going to use some of them in my script, but didnt get round to doing it as Sean said he didnt want me to. He said either I could use all of his functions and give credit in the file or not use it at all. I then said that I wouldnt use it if those were the only choices as I dont want my work censored, especially when im trying to help people. |
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Laszlo
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 3943
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| tic wrote: | | I didnt even use his code (I suggested I might use it) and still gave thanks anyway! and he still complained. |
I think they refer to this post, where there is no acknowledgment. It was implied that you streamlined lexikos’ code, which did refer to Sean’s modules, but people don’t often read all the prior posts, just the one they intend to use. In the post mentioned above you wrote: “taking functions out of the standard library”, which tells that you did not write those, but there is no explicit reference to Sean. Some people need that, so in the future we should try to satisfy their needs. Not a big deal... |
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tic
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 1318
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Some people need that, so in the future we should try to satisfy their needs. Not a big deal... |
I agree and I just needed to be told by the person what their wishes were for their code. Not for them to say they are "furious".
Just say "Please could you acknowledge that you are using functions I wrote in your code".
If I had used his functions I would of course have acknowledged him in my post, but he just needed to say he wanted a line in the code and that would have been that.
Edit: And I do take on board what you are saying Laszlo about that post, as when I continue a thread then I dont continually acknowledge a person, but just assume that acknowledging someones work once is fine, but perhaps Sean touched on a point and a line should be dedicated to acknowledgmenets to not let people miss earlier posts, although actually I wasnt releasing any code in that post. It could get crazy if even when posting an example half way through 4 pages of posts that I have to acknowledge everyone. Its just an example/question, its not me posting a function and claiming it as my own work. |
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Andreone
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 257
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| tic wrote: | | Quote: | | Just a little thanks would had been enough to prevent this debate. |
This shows that you dont know what were talking about. If you look back youll realise that I didnt even use his code (I suggested I might use it) and still gave thanks anyway! and he still complained. |
Actually I do. I follow this discussion before it has been split.
| Lazzlo wrote: | | I think they refer to this post, where there is no acknowledgment. It was implied that you streamlined lexikos’ code, which did refer to Sean’s modules, but people don’t often read all the prior posts, just the one they intend to use. In the post mentioned above you wrote: “taking functions out of the standard library”, which tells that you did not write those, but there is no explicit reference to Sean. |
Exactly. Thank you. |
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tic
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 1318
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:33 am Post subject: |
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But basically the bottom line is that I cant use COM as i see fit. I am restricted to what I can and cannot use and cant use lines I need and leave the ones I dont.
Well....actually I can use it as I want, but it appears I cant release it and no-one else will get to use any of my functions. And i'd say some of my functions have been pretty useful. Ive already had 1 person base their entire script on 2 of them. At the end of the day I could continue HTMLText in any way I see fit and just not release it, which would be a shame, but its no loss to me  |
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Sean
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1249
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:12 am Post subject: |
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I was trying to ignore it but I coudn't, so my final post in the forum, probably.
| Andreone wrote: | | This was actually the all point: courtesy. |
Thanks for pointing it out, Andreone.
I'm writing this as I'm afraid that other members might not be using COM.ahk freely. When I posted it in the forum, it was not entirely my own work any more, became part of the forum too. That's what I had thought back then. So, any members can use it freely, and I'm only requesting that please don't claim it as his/her own work, and please comment about the original post if possible.
And, I'd like to say that this event is not the reason, but only provides the chance for me to leave the forum, as I said to Moderator! (:congratulation, btw). |
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Laszlo
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 3943
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| I wish I had a psych degree... I just don’t get it. Why anyone needs a “chance … to leave the forum”? The Forum provides free flow of information, ideas, collaboration, etc. If it is not beneficial to anyone, or he has a change in life or interest, he can just leave. Why is there a “final post”? Is it to teach us a lesson? Like, “you did not behave, so you will be sorry”. Of course we will be. I will miss Sean, as I do Shimanov and all the others, who just stopped coming back. But, if you don’t like the style of a couple users, ignore them (us?)! There are thousands of others whom you don’t have an issue with. (I am not sarcastic. I genuinely don’t understand this getting mad and punish the innocent attitude.) |
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ahklerner
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 1091
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| Laszlo wrote: | | I wish I had a psych degree... I just don’t get it. Why anyone needs a “chance … to leave the forum”? The Forum provides free flow of information, ideas, collaboration, etc. If it is not beneficial to anyone, or he has a change in life or interest, he can just leave. Why is there a “final post”? Is it to teach us a lesson? Like, “you did not behave, so you will be sorry”. Of course we will be. I will miss Sean, as I do Shimanov and all the others, who just stopped coming back. But, if you don’t like the style of a couple users, ignore them (us?)! There are thousands of others whom you don’t have an issue with. (I am not sarcastic. I genuinely don’t understand this getting mad and punish the innocent attitude.) |
My thoughts exactly.
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SKAN
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 5581
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: |
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While I usually stay out of a debate ...
The majority of this forum wants to consider anything posted on the forum as Public Domain
AND
It is the responsibilty of the author ( of the code ) to explicitly mention that his/her code is covered under a specific license.
Since this kind of attitude is being supported by the veterans , it shall be deemed to be the general rule of the forum.
Does this kind of attitude exist anywhere else ?
For those who find this kind of attitude unacceptable, do they have any choice other than to silently leave the forum ?
Sometime ago, majkinetor said "This forum is too good"
I understand those words only now.
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Sean
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 1249
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Why am I still receiving the notification mail? OK, I unchecked the button in this message too.
| Laszlo wrote: | | Why anyone needs a “chance … to leave the forum”? The Forum provides free flow of information, ideas, collaboration, etc. If it is not beneficial to anyone, or he has a change in life or interest, he can just leave. Why is there a “final post”? Is it to teach us a lesson? Like, “you did not behave, so you will be sorry”. Of course we will be. I will miss Sean, as I do Shimanov and all the others, who just stopped coming back. But, if you don’t like the style of a couple users, ignore them (us?)! There are thousands of others whom you don’t have an issue with. (I am not sarcastic. I genuinely don’t understand this getting mad and punish the innocent attitude.) |
Why have my messages been mis-interpreted often? It might be the reason why I wanted to leave silently: less misunderstood. Do you really believe a member's leaving could be a punishment? How come? It may just means no reply and no update, and no notification, in a simplified sense. And the "final" is more an emphasize to myself. As you see, I still can't ignore the forum completely.
I don't want to make the situation even worse, so I better make it short. There have been some reasons I have to keep minimum the usuage of computer, and thus the visit to the forum, like my sight has been weakened lately etc. But, I'm kinda all-or-nothing style, so it simply didn't work to try to reduce the visit. I needed to stop visiting the forum, however, I'm kinda addicted to the forum so I couldn't. Then, this event happened which was bad enough experience to me. So, the decision to leave the forum, at least for a while. I hope it's enough explanation. |
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Titan
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 5009
Location: imaginationland
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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It's unfair to challenge and ridicule someone's decision to leave, just let them be.
Not losing sight of the main topic...
| Andreone wrote: | | tic wrote: | | I think Sean needs to relise that this is an open source forum |
So what? open source doesn't mean closed to courtesy.
This was actually the all point: courtesy. |
I believe lexikos linked back to the COM page where it was first mentioned. Moreover the following posts were sideline scripts for educational purposes, nothing that tic released officially as part of his work. A link back in this case is enough courtesy as one can find all the relevant information they would need to contact the original author; did you expect tic to rework appraisal for Sean in every one of his follow ups? There is no license attached to COM so what possible precautions do you expect users to take beyond stating their sources. It is deeply unfortunate to see FUD being used to deter users from benefiting from open source material, especially when third parties (such as "Moderator!" and yourself) advocate the obscurity.
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majkinetor
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 3593
Location: Belgrade
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean wrote: | | OK, there is no clear-cut rule, even to myself. I don't have any feeling when seeing some small codes are used in other scripts. On the contrary, I often become curious. However, when seeing bulk of functions torn from the original script without any comment, I can't deny it hurts |
I agree. I never credit authors which code I take if I had to modify code a lot, or if I revisit and change every other line leaving just some lines intact. This is usualy true for 99% of the scripts you can find here, as they are usualy just presentation/proof of the concept and generaly can not be reused without heavy manual correction.
| daveand5 wrote: | | after reading this debate I would like to submit my code for consideration |
That was not even funny. You clearly don't understand how much effort is needed for authors to create modules that unrespectfull people like you can use like its integrated into the language. Its not the a:=:b:=c thing, and it seems to me that it is as far as you can possible go.
| Quote: | | Defining plagiarism/code reuse is an interesting problem. Clearly a few assignments don’t constitute an algorithm worth to be protected. On the other hand, changing variable names in a function does not create a new algorithm, nor does swapping instructions, replacing building blocks with other ones (false=1-true; false=!true; false=1^true...). Even flow charts can be altered without affecting the final result. And how would you tell if an algorithm is independently rediscovered? The algorithm in my student conference paper (In-Place Sorting) turned out to be known by many (although not published in exactly the same form), and later it appeared in many publications, apparently rediscovered by their authors. In the patents world the protected work has to be novel and not obvious. Neither is well defined, so there are many lawsuits to decide each case individually. |
Any code can be changed so that it looks like not related, in any measure. You have to be really sick bastard to obfuscate somebodies else work so it is unrecognisable just to be able to take his work as yours.
On the other hand, most of the good things lay down in dirt, forgoten, until somebody rediscover them, and maybe provide some fantastic usage of code in question. This can be understood as positive contribution as original author never envisinen the usage in such way, and that may be the reason for his code abandoned, not reused and forgotten. So, really, its generaly impossible to tell who did what, only in some special case.
| Moderator! wrote: | | when pmed, he replied to me that he was leaving the forum for a while and i requested him to atleast reply to his topics. but i think its less likely to happen. would feel glad if Sean proves me wrong. |
I wouldn't be surprised about Sean to leave the forum. AHK forum is just on the surface friendly place, but is generaly just bunch of greedy people who can't even say thanks for the help or to the people who made extended AHK and made it what it is today. Valuable work is always recognisable, no matter if you need it at moment or not, or if you may never need it in your life. People here are shortsited. They don't realise that supporting authors who extend AHK can lead only to good things (for instance more good programmers coming to the forum because they were attracted by one of those things that you don't need) and doing vice-versa is bad thing (cuz people will eventualy think their work is useless or not well done). This is probably because n00bish orientation of the language, and n00bs dont' have this sense of community as they only want to ge the thing done.
I left the forum once to relax from that selfish behavior (well, that was just 1 of the reasons). And almost every power member from the past left the forum. Pattern is clear to me, and it happens again and again. Perhaps Chris has also his part in that, by not visiting the forum enough and making a model of good behavior, as most of the people are foolowing the leader unquestionably.
| tic wrote: | | I think Sean needs to relise that this is an open source forum, and was being a little selfish with his code |
This is not an open source forum. This is just a forum and anybody can choose what to do with its intelectual property.
| Quote: | | But basically the bottom line is that I cant use COM as i see fit. I am restricted to what I can and cannot use and cant use lines I need and leave the ones I dont. |
Hm... well, most of the COM things are DllCalls so if it is done by somebody else, code would be almost exactly the same. COM.ahk per se is not why the Sean is authority here when COM is in question, but the methods he used in various scripts around , some to be very sophisticated (like creating full COM servers).
| tic wrote: | | At the end of the day I could continue HTMLText in any way I see fit and just not release it, which would be a shame, but its no loss to me |
On the other hand, I support people who create useful modules and functions, like you do. After all, not crediting someone for his work is perfectly normal in this world and you can perfectly relaxed behave that way, if you want. People are doing self sufficient shit all the time. It may be non etical, but again, who said we all have to be etical.
| Laslzo wrote: | | I wish I had a psych degree... I just don’t get it. Why anyone needs a “chance … to leave the forum”? |
Like I said, this is one unfriendly place in disguise. You can expect other people leaving, including myself.
| Laszlo wrote: | | Is it to teach us a lesson? Like, “you did not behave, so you will be sorry”. |
Nah, everybody who tries to teach a lesson anybody must be stupid (I surely was stupid here, before, like when trying to convince everybody how life would be great to follow some standards, while some kido and his ma who didn't let his son use anything but 1MB TEMP dir could create entire debate about my hard strugle for convention, and then never appear on the forum again). Its just that people become tired, by loosing its valuable energy on stupid things.
| Quote: | | Sometime ago, majkinetor said "This forum is too good" |
I was probably sarcastic, or drunk, or smoked, or retarded, or talking about Ask For Help sections which is actually "too good".
The forum doesn't have an each of cooperation, and this is good example of it.
| Sean wrote: | | I don't want to make the situation even worse, so I better make it short. There have been some reasons I have to keep minimum the usuage of computer, and thus the visit to the forum, like my sight has been weakened lately etc. But, I'm kinda all-or-nothing style, so it simply didn't work to try to reduce the visit. I needed to stop visiting the forum, however, I'm kinda addicted to the forum so I couldn't. Then, this event happened which was bad enough experience to me. So, the decision to leave the forum, at least for a while. I hope it's enough explanation. |
I understand your addiction, something that keeps me here besides uber performance of AHK. Have a nice vacation or life (if you dont come back) and thank you for all the things you did.
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tic
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 1318
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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I am also very sorry to see you go Sean, and hope that you come back one day.
I am also sad to hear that you arent enjoying the forums as much any more Maj. It would literally be the end of ahk if a handful of people left (Maj, Lex, Lasz, Sean, Philho, ahklerner, eng...) Which is crazy to think about. 10 people leaving could render such a clever language to being just a "moving mouse and pressing keyboard" script. So dont be angry Maj, just be thankful for the good people. You may have noticed in my posts, but I love to help any way I can! |
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majkinetor
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 3593
Location: Belgrade
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I am not angry at anyone particular, just dissapointed on the fact that AHK can be much more and it itsn't because of the imature directions we take as society.
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AHKnow
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with the argument that code posted on the forum is public domain, unless the author specifies otherwise. An author could make suggestions on how people are to give credit to them as a note in their script, because a specific request might prevent some disputes and assumptions.
However, I would think that the point of making one's work public on a forum is for the benefit of the entire community and/or further development of AutoHotkey.
Another great point is re-discovery and co-discovery of functions and algorithms. Other people can have the same ideas too... AutoHotkey is a high level and new language. Many things that people are trying to do have been done already in Assembly, C, C++, Visual Basic, Ruby, Python, etc... COM has been done already too, in many other languages...
For example, what if an AutoHotkey author created a script obfuscation or tokenizing method? While the author at AutoHotkey would be the 1st to do it, this is not an unique idea in programming or scripting. The author is not "truly" the 1st. It's more he is the 1st known AutoHotkey user, doing something that has been done before.
Furthermore, who is to say that other authors did not have a similar idea but simply had not been as far along in their progress. Perhaps seeing the public code would inspire another author, have him continue their work, and now that author has made even further progress than the 1st author to publish. Should this other author be punished when publishing his work based on using or being inspired by some public code from another author?
If this future author got egotistical about his work and not let others borrow or use it, than he could be hurting the AutoHotkey community or AutoHotkey's development by inhibiting other authors from developing using the same or similar idea.
I think that is why if you release source code into a public forum, you should assume it might be used, borrowed, etc.... unless you state otherwise or have the code accompanied with a license agreement. However, even then you should think that blocking others from using such code could be inhibiting the development of AutoHotkey or limiting the helpfulness of the code to other users.
As for recognizing authors, I see this more as a politeness, respect, and/or ego issue. We should appreciate contributing authors, say thanks, and give praise whenever possible. Yet, this should not become an ego thing that stops AutoHotkey's development.
By the way, thanks Sean, I hope you return one day and your vision problems clear up. |
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