AutoHotkey Community

[geor]

`
Intention : to fully understand AHK as a tool, including its "lineage" & RELATIONSHIPS
to the other objects-components-languages it interacts with ;

... such that I can most effectively invest my time in studying these areas
in a way that will bring me to the highest competencies as quickly as possible.

***********************************************

The most efficient way for me to quickly earn high level competency
is to 1st have a global view & feel for the inter-RELATIONSHIPS of the topic I'm studying.

As a beginner here, I have acquired multiple books on the Windows shell,
& some video tutorials by folks such as Mark Russinovich, etc. (though haven't yet read/viewed many of them).

I'd greatly appreciate it if someone would provide an explanation of 'HOW' AHK relates to,
depends on, works with/against:

Win32 API, COM, MFC, WSH, WMI, etc. etc.

Truthfully, I'm just throwing up every concept-acronym I can think of,
& I don't know if they relate or not (because I don't understand them ... yet),
but hopefully I have demonstrated the intention of my quest.

As best as I've been able to read on the forum and in Help,
AHK itself is written in C++ ?

So this in itself determines what it can/can't do or has a(n) easy/difficult time doing ?

I see some strings used in various scripts that I can't find in Help,
and I assume they must be a part of the API or some COM object, etc.,
& it seems like the better I understand those arenas,
the more skilfully I'll be able to employ AHK.

It does impress me that some long-time posters here,
who are obviously veteran developers that have 'been there & done it ... all' ,
use AHK because it's :

* Powerful
* Light on system resources
* Fast !!

So as I like to model successful pracititioners in any field,
I ask you to kindly share your points of view here in a sort of "History/Philosophy" lesson,
and Thank You for your time & energy.
.

[Guest]

i'll give you short answer. AHK is written in C++. basically it's huge wrapper of Win32 API. simplified as much as possible.

Look at MsgBox (AHK Command)
and MessageBoxEx (Win32 API)

then compare

[geor]

[Guest]

but i did not mean that AHK is just full of Win32 API wrappers. AHK also invented smart iterator called Loop and more

[geor]

~hopefully I'll soon understand what a Loop iterator is

... man, this is getting to be ALMOST as fun as dropping in to a perfect glassy tube/powder chute
or sinking a 40' for an Eagle

[Starbuck]

Hey geor, you've provided an excellent base for my own inquiry - maybe we can learn something together here.

I'm not new to coding at all, I've been doing this for about 30 years now and still going strong. To sum it up, I've learned and disposed of about 20 languages and I've written a lot of protocols and interfaces between software/hardware components. While I can read C and assembler and have done some work with both, I've specifically avoided them because I don't personally believe my time is well spent at that level when there are so many higher-level languages around - I can twiddle, I just choose not to. Right now I'm on the fast track to getting intense with PHP (to use along with about six other language/stack/technologies that I use on a daily basis), so I have to decide carefully how much time I can afford to spend on AHK as well.

When I think of PHP, BASIC, C#, Java, or any related variants, I know we can do anything we want with the Win32 API, COM, Managed code, and any libraries or protocols built over these tools. You do need to know something about the mechanics of the tools (and related data typing) in order to use them competently.

Using AHK does not require any knowledge of C or details about the Win32 API. However, this simplicity needs to be weighed against other factors. I see AHK as coming from a single source, with unusual syntax, and pretty much the same functionality that we can get with any other tool. Does it balance? Not yet, I have to look at the unique features to see if they're compelling enough to justify dedicating some time.

The unique features in AHK include fast access to the keyboard, and excellent handling of the mouse and Windows objects. Aside from that, virtually all of the functionality seems to be a syntax-specific wrapper around features readily available elsewhere. I'm being generous because "AutoHotKey" seems to have started as a keylogger, which it did/does really well, and everything else after that is just a wrapper around existing functionality.

No, I'm not dis-ing the software. I have a lot of respect for what I see here. The world is full of great "wrappers" and great people who crete them. Wrappers abstract complexities and make them look easy, and that's good for everyone. I'm just saying this isn't new and all powerful like some of our friends here seem to think - and it's not the only game in town. Again, the information is out there for anyone who cares to do their reading. It actually took me months to figure out what people were getting so excited about here. It's a key logger, it clicks stuff on the screen for you, OK... Then it does networking and GUI, and takes out the trash and watches the dog and ... well, maybe not that far, but I had a hard time "getting it" until I realized that everything is just a wrapper around something else that I've already done.

Regarding Win32, COM, etc, these are all documented extremely well. You can make use of the Win32 API and any COM component from WSH, VBA, or just about any other scripting or compiled language. I think it's worth it to get to know AHK for what it does well, and just acknowledge for now that it happens to do other things too - you probably don't need to confuse these things with AHK when just getting started.

So, I would also like to find a small series of intense tutorials (yes, I found "the one" and it's a good one) to put me on the fast track to getting productive with AHK. I've already spent many nights struggling with global vs local behaviors, getting clicks and keypresses to work just right, making sure I got my back-ticks and := operators right, etc. I'm guessing geor could use something similar. What I could really use is a series of walk-throughs that exercise the few things that AHK does uniquely well, like complex keyboard mapping and targeting objects on the Window for clicks and keypresses. After that, using AHK seems to be a matter of learning how other API's work and then figuring out how to use those with AHK syntax - when code samples are readily available in other languages.

OK, I've gotten myself into enough trouble for one posting. Flame jacket on. Lemme have it!

[engunneer]

[Guest]

[geor]

Thanks, y'all - I was hoping my inquiry hadn't died,

'cause I've eaten but I'm still not full
(want more information & guidance & help ..... )

I benefit from what everyone just said !
but especially 'preciate Starbuck taking that time -
the concept of "wrapper" will prove a good one
for me to wrap my brain around.

I'm an "intelligent beginner" ? -
circling back to read Matt Pietrek & Petzold, et. al.,
to get some knowledge about API, COM, etc.

And the fact that it is so easy for a rank beginner
to get some immediate success with -
I estimate to have already saved 1 day/week for several weeks now -
getting more done in the same time,
as well as leaving more time to play w/ family & friends

I'd like to be a one to write (yet another) beginner's tutorial down the road -
and it will be task/project based.

In my experience as a teacher in several unrelated fields,
I set up practical projects that were of benefit to the :

"So What? What's in it for ME ?" attitude.

& even if those weren't something absolutely unforgettable to the student,
I made sure that they formed enough inferences from it,
that they COULD create Exactly what they wanted
due to their experience from our classes.


I see this same metaphor with so darn many things in I.T./C.S. -

file mgr/explorers for instance -

a beginner just doesn't know the questions to ask,
as to why/how xplorer2 or DOpus or TC or ...... (insert fav.)
could literally save them perhaps 1/2 - 1 hr for every 8 hours on the computer - IMMEDIATELY !!

So, same w/ AHK - I "got it" about the hotkeys & hotstrings,
but don't yet really have the "aHA!" about the rest of the stuff AHK
can help me do.

but i will
.

[Starbuck]

About syntax, I hope I can cite examples of why I have issues with it, but without nitpicking on specifics. Let me say one more time but differently - I don't care about specific syntax issues, my overall sentiment is based on the idea that the language is full of this sort of syntactical uniqueness.

Example1:

[Starbuck]

@engunneer: Thanks for the reference to Control statements - I didn't have a clue!

One of my big issues now is that I open a window and I have to be very careful to make sure I am where I think I am before clicking and keying. My code has a lot of error handling in case keys are dropped (which happens) or clicks are made where they should have occurred.

About your own code at work. On one hand I think it's great that you've been able to make strides in the absence of better support from your IT staff. On the other hand, that's a management issue, not technical, and if you can't get your job done then management needs to make decisions about it. By getting around the problem you're enabling IT to do a poor job, keeping management in the dark about internal problems, etc. On top of that, when you're gone who will maintain your code? Someone is going to get stuck looking at your code without a clue, that person may not be in IT because IT may not even be aware of your code. That whole situation is just "wrong" from many business perspectives. Sure, you have a job to do and you can put a feather in your cap for showing how you can get around issues. But that's not the way business should work. Quick fixes like that are not good long-term solutions - if you have other issues with IT, you could thank yourself in part for not pressing them to fix the other issues that you fixed yourself.

Thanks for your help here and in so many other postings.

[engunneer]

this thread is growing exponentially, as I have quite a few comments about your last two posts. I'll try to answer a many as I can remember.

Re: work, I actually had support from IT in setting up the stored procedure for me to call, and they have a copy of all source code (and have had it for over a year). Granted, I don't expect them to maintain it. We are in the middle of a huge IT investment (we've more than tripled staff and are replacing every single workstation and IT infrastructure component) that will make my program obsolete. My work was mainly a bridge between the crappy system the last consultant built for us, and the much more usable system IT is piloting and actively working on now. I fully expect my code to be dead in another year, but dealing with a bad system for 2+ years while they finally do it right this time was unbearable. I know it takes time to build it right, and that's what they are doing. Also, we've just refreshed alot of management too, and I am much more confident about the new guys doing things right. My job there is actually to work on standardizing systems and making them more robust.

Re: being sure you are clicking where you expect. This should easily be eliminated via Control* commands. Also see WinMenuSelectItem

Re: Example 1

[Starbuck]

[geor]

@Starbuck - Thank you very much for circling back & considering my potential needs ...
and your bullet-points echo my own sentiments, I believe ....

Here's my grand-poobah philosophical/positional statement -

#1: I'm grateful to Chris, et.al. (including the AutoIT folks) for creating this approach;
& while I wish they had both the time & the inclination to create a Teaching Method,
a pedagogical teaching approach w/ lesson plans that spanned from Beginner to Advanced,
I understand the realities of why that most often does Not happen.

#2: The Help & Documentation seem to me to be exceptionally thorough,
yet presented in (to my observation) more of a standard, what I call, "Noun-Object" format :

"This is this, This is this, That is that, etc. etc. ...... Best of Luck!"

vs. what I call a

"Verb-Relationship" style that explains :

" "This is this, This is this, That is that, etc. etc." .... but WAIT ! there's MORE !! ...

... Here's How/Why they inter-relate, & MOST importantly:
here's Why/How it matters; Why you should care; & What you can begin to do with it."


... step by step, yes, hold my hand even, dadgummit !!
I'm not too proud/too already-an-expert/too ... WHATEVER!?! to admit it, or ask for it !


What I'm proposing or would love to see, is really a multi-level documentation,
because certainly .....
skilled I.T. professionals need only the briefest of guides that they can quickly peruse & then be on their way.
I respect that, & I'll be such a one sooner than later !


#3: Never go past a word or phrase you don't understand,

Sooo ... a method must be presented to cultivate & grow that understanding
through appropriate drills/exercises so as to rapidly come to "Own" the material -
& hopefully such exercises are crafted with an understanding
of the 3 main modalities of perceptual learning - Visual, Auditory, Kinesthetic.


I'll reiterate ... a beginner simply does not even know the appropriate questions to ask ...
a beginner doesn't even know what they don't know !
Or,
Why they should care ?!?

"What's in I.T. for me?"

Therefore, someone who has the time & empathy for the Beginner's Mind COULD relate to it thusly,
& the measure of success COULD be :

"How quickly, and how often, have I as a teacher-coach-guide,
produced (taught/coached/guided) others who approach, duplicate,
or ...
(G*d forbid!)
even Exceed! my own levels of Mastery?"

For myself as an advanced guitarist-Musician & teacher,
I dazzle students w/ a pyrotechnic display of fretboard frenzy,
only enough to capture & hook their attention
so that they're willing to cultivate the necessary discipline,
to do the necessary homework,
that leads to the actualization-attainment of the goal(s).

Meanwhile, YouTube is littered w/ 30 second "How-to-do-I.T." demos by hormonally-driven wunderkindz,
executed @ the equivalent of a hyperPresto 208 beats/minute
that would shame the likes of Yngwie Malmsteen/Hendrix/Vaughan/(u-pick) ....

.... "I saw/heard what you just did, but I don't understand a thing you just said."

.... same applies to scripting-coding, etc. ....

{ peaceout }

[Starbuck]

Speaking as a fellow/former musician, anyone who mentions Yngvie in a forum posting is top-notch in my book.

Speaking of books - I think your position can be summed up quickly. The docs are exceptional, but the doc here is a reference manual. Full stop. You want a tutorial. The approach to these types of docs is completely different. Tutorials are progressive in order of concepts and increasing complexity, reference docs are sorted alphabetically, and maybe categorized if you're lucky.

To facilitate getting what you/we want in a format that does some good, I propose we start to flesh out the tutorial section of the wiki. Someone who knows more about the software (I guess I can do this now) can create a skeleton of topics for others to fill in the blanks. When done, the result should be an organized document that someone can walk through from start to finish to get an education. I'll take a look at kicking this off within the next week or so.