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Make AHK_L "main" version?


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Poll: Should AHK_L be promoted as "the" main version of AutoHotkey? (128 member(s) have cast votes)

Should AHK_L be promoted as "the" main version of AutoHotkey?

  1. Voted YES (I use AHK_L) (201 votes [76.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 76.14%

  2. YES (I use AutoHotkey Basic) (24 votes [9.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

  3. NO (I use AHK_L) (8 votes [3.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.03%

  4. NO (I use AutoHotkey Basic) (24 votes [9.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

  5. Other... (please comment) (7 votes [2.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.65%

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sumon
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Over a year ago, Chris slightly altered the Download page to also feature AHK_L.

Although my interest and activity have dropped off, I'm grateful that Lexikos, fincs, Sean, jackieku, Micha and others consider AutoHotkey worthwhile enough to provide it with major new functionality. In keeping with this, and as something long overdue, I've altered the website to give AutoHotkey_L more of the attention it deserves (most importantly the download page).

As time goes on, the site statistics (download demand) can help determine whether the site should be reoriented more toward AutoHotkey_L. In any case, I'd like everyone to feel free to use the entire forum for either version of AutoHotkey.


Time has indeed gone on, and it is time to ask - Is it now time for AHK_L to succeed the halted AutoHotkey "Basic"? As is obvious from the Announcements forum, AutoHotkey_L is being actively developed and improved, while AutoHotkey Basic is unlikely to ever be patched again. With the upcoming site changes, I believe we should discuss this a bit. My personal opinion is that AHK_L should be incorporated as the main version of AutoHotkey during the redesign of AutoHotkey.com, and that the documentation & tutorial should make it obvious that AutoHotkey is a language that anyone can use, while still revealing to advanced users how to easier perform more - using functions, libraries & AHK_L's enhanced abilities.

I'll list a few pro's and con's with the alternatives (feel free to add to these lists).

A) Keep it as it is now, with two parallel versions

(+)
[*:2mebbuuo]No change required
[*:2mebbuuo]Basic is more "scaled down", and is less intimidating to beginners
[*:2mebbuuo]All legacy scripts will work with Basic
[*:2mebbuuo]Choice is good (let new users choose)
[*:2mebbuuo]AutoHotkey Basic never changes, compatibility is never broken
(-)
[*:2mebbuuo]New scripts can't be run with people using basic
[*:2mebbuuo]If basic remains featured, people will keep downloading it
[*:2mebbuuo]It's creating a fracture where some scripts can only be used by some parts of the community
B) Make AHK_L the "main" version

(+)
[*:2mebbuuo]AutoHotkey_L is up-to-date and continually improved, is supported by developers
[*:2mebbuuo]AutoHotkey_L has features that Basic lacks (Arrays, "Objects", COM, Unicode, better GUIs etc.)
[*:2mebbuuo]AutoHotkey_L can be used precisely as Basic too (but easier)
[*:2mebbuuo]Remove the division between different types of users
[*:2mebbuuo]Only one version to "support" in Scripts & Functions, Ask for Help, etc.
[*:2mebbuuo]All/most new scripts can be used by AHK_L
(-)
[*:2mebbuuo]Most features of AHK_L aren't "necessary"
[*:2mebbuuo]Some users may be annoyed by shoving away Basic, and eventually leave
[*:2mebbuuo]Having more advanced features may confuse people into thinking AutoHotkey is difficult
*Note: If you use several versions of AutoHotkey, you can tick in your personally prefered version.

jaco0646
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v2 should become the main version, so that we don't need to reorient the site twice.

Zaelia
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I think same thing as Jaco, it's better to wait V2, problem is that old threads are an expired help.
"You annoy me, therefore I exist."

nimda
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- AutoHotkey Basic never changes, compatibility is never broken

AutoHotkey_L v1.1.05.00 never changes either. Neither does any other version. Nobody is forced to continually update their _L.

I agree with jaco and Zaelia.

jethrow
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I'd say v2 shouldn't be the main version unless it's in at least the beta stage. We may have to coordinate with the developers to see how much of a time gap there will potentially be between the new site rolling out & v2 being officially stable.

If we want to make AHK_L the main version, I'd say it should be called AutoHotkey & AHK Basic should be called AutoHotkey Basic in the download section. Also, IMO AHK_L should have a note that states it is the recommended download ... though that is debatable.

sumon
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Regarding v2 I excluded it from the poll because of the broken backwards compatibility, but also because I have contacted Lexikos about this.

I have mixed feelings about waiting for v2.0, since I'm not sure how far away it is. There are some things I want to achieve that might have to be left for a later script-breaking release.

My preference would be to promote v1.1. There are already quite a few users, and the step from v1.1 to v2.0 is smaller than the step from Basic to v2.0.


Of course one could advocate moving to AHKv2 "as soon as possible", but as it looks now we have no estimate of when AHKv2 can see a beta or release phase.

My opinion is that even if we will switch to AHKv2 at some point in the future, that is a later question - and we might have to let that process take time, too.

If we want to make AHK_L the main version, I'd say it should be called AutoHotkey & AHK Basic should be called AutoHotkey Basic in the download section. Also, IMO AHK_L should have a note that states it is the recommended download ... though that is debatable.


Yes, about the name - that can be discussed too. We discussed this a bit in the #AHK irc-chat, and there seems to be a consensus that "AutoHotkey Basic" sounds too appealing to beginners when placed side by side with AHK_L. Classic or Legacy might be a better choice. I like Legacy, but it could be confused with _L, so Classic maybe. And AHK_L could be "AutoHotkey v1.1" (previously known as AutoHotkey_L) officially, but after a while known as simply AutoHotkey.

The important thing however would be making it a non-choice which version to download. The older version(s) would still be attainable of course, but maybe not directly under downloads.

fragman
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Why not simply use the AHK_L versions as official updates? I think this would be easiest. There could still be a notice on the Downloads page to the last "Original" AHK version if anyone needs it for compatibility.

G. Sperotto
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Basic is far more appealing to non-programmers IMO.

All you have to do is download it, open up notepad and write a single line to script your very first "hello world!" msgbox.


No need to choose Unicode or Ansi (wtf is that really!! - non-programmers saying) no need to download notepad++ for unicode, no need for so many choices over unknown topics with unknown results!

"Make" a basic version of _L. Has anyone ever thought of that? Perhaps the ANSI version itself with a different label? No choosing over unknown topics? No need to think about unknown consequences? Let every noobie see how simple using a _L version can be.

Only make people have to choose about something when they are ready for it, and than (only than) yes! do hide the real BASIC version from the visitors eyesight. But don't really take away the download link, just move it somewhere else.

jaco0646
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There is no Unicode vs. Ansi choice in v2. :wink:

sinkfaze
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Basic is far more appealing to non-programmers IMO.


But there's really nothing the non-programmer can do in Basic that they can't do in _L. The appeal should apply equally (actually it should apply unequally since _L vastly expands the capabilities of Basic). The difference is that we don't market the newest version in any significant way, so no one has any incentive to try the newer version, much less change.

No need to choose Unicode or Ansi (wtf is that really!! - non-programmers saying)


I think the brief notes Lexikos created to go with the radio options in the installer is more than adequate for most users.

sumon
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Basic is far more appealing to non-programmers IMO.

[...]

Let every noobie see how simple using a _L version can be.

[...]


You're making a very important point here: AHK_L is not any more difficult than basic. Also, you're right that ANSI/Unicode shouldn't matter, maybe that can be clarified a bit more in the installer. But I think it's pretty clear at the moment, since Unicode x32 is recommended (I personally use this because of that reason).

I also promise that regardless which version is featured, I will make it as easy and inviting as possible to try AutoHotkey out - and get people started within minutes. Like you say: Download > Install (next, next) > Open up Notepad, GO! So, whichever - it shall be "far more appealing to non-programmers" ;)

As for stats, I've just had'em running for less than a day (but they are probably statistically accurate already, with >2000 downloads). Out of visitors that visit the downloads page and download either version, 62% download AHK_L, 38% download AHK_Basic. For whatever that is worth.

jethrow
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Also, you're right that ANSI/Unicode shouldn't matter, maybe that can be clarified a bit more in the installer.

Yes - if AHK_L is made the main version, everything should recommend to the new user that AHK(_L) Unicode is the version to use. The ANSI version could have a note stating that it's a special version designed to be backward-compatible with AHK Basic/Legacy, though this support will be dropped with AHK v2.

nimda
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I'm personally happy that Chris put "It has not been updated since 2009" on the Downloads page for Basic. Although very slowly, this should discourage users more the farther into the future we get. This does seem to be too slow a process, however. In fact, when I recommended AutoHotkey to two of my friends, they both downloaded Basic! (I quickly corrected them :p)
Talking to them, the main appeal of it was "I thought I'd start off with 'Basic' and then move up if I needed to." There is no reason for anybody to think that changing versions can be a difficult, time-consuming process, and I think that this should change.

Learning one
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I'm strongly for officially promoting AutoHotkey_L (Unicode x86) as the main version.
Transition period from AutoHotkey Basic to AutoHotkey_L lasted long enough.

The time of AutoHotkey Basic is over.
AutoHotkey_L rules now. The majotity of community accepts it as mainstream.
AutoHotkey v2 is not ready, and when it will be, months or years will have to pass before people will accept it as new official version of AHK.

Stop confusing new people with two downloads. Move Installer for AutoHotkey Basic here.
It's true that some "advanced" things in AutoHotkey_L can confuse new users. This problem could be solved by creating two help files; 1) "Basic help - Introduction to AHK" that will cover just most basic things and 2) "Full blown documentation" that will cover all features.

At the end, please don't get me wrong - I honestly consider Chris as a genius , legend, a hero who must never be forgotten, a person who contributed to mankind, and I think his work - AutoHotkey Basic is fantastic, great, awesome, but it's simply made obsolete by AutoHotkey_L - which is even better.
AutoHotkey_L unofficially rules for a longer time. Make it official. But forever respect Chris and his glorious work.

jethrow
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Also, if AHK_L becomes the featured version, there should be some careful consideration as to how we want to present the Quick-Start Tutorial. Things such as introducing only the expression assignment operator & the if (expression) statment, since their counterparts will be removed in v2. There should be a quick demonstration on how to make the file encoding UTF-8, even though this is default if Create a New AHK Script is used. Also, arrays/objects should be introduced & briefly explained as being extremely simple & easy to use.