Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and rules?

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kon
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Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and rules?

25 Oct 2013, 11:56

A brief history AFAIK:
  1. A while ago in the official AHK IRC channel kidbit said that in his country it is okay to call people a certain racial slur. He has since defended the statement. He was banned as a result.
  2. Kidbit made a post in the stickied IRC thread that he had created his own IRC channel and it was the “Official” AHK IRC channel.
  3. A mod edited his post:
    kidbit: “My channel is the OFFICIAL AHK channel.”
    Mod: “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
  4. The forum went down for maintenance Sunday night. There were unforeseen difficulties and the forum had to be restored. All of the forum posts that had been made subsequent to the forum backup were lost, including kidbit’s post.
  5. Kidbit thought that his post was deleted as an attempt to censor him, and made another post in which he “demanded” that the mod responsible be identified and held accountable or “this forum is dead to me.”
  6. The mods calmly explained to him that many other users’ posts had been lost also as a result of the forum restore. Kidbit did not seem to understand the explanation, instead he became increasingly irate and posted screenshots of PM conversations where mods explained the situation and he in return called them “tyrants” and said, “Those who kill the dragon are doomed to become one themselves.” Etc.
  7. The forum had to be restored again for some reason and Kidbit began deleting all his posts, but has subsequently started posting on the forum again asking for help etc.
Those are the facts as far as I know. Now for my opinion:

Kidbit wants to create a channel where he is free to use any racial slur he feels is appropriate. I don’t think it would be good for AHK to be associated with that channel in any way. Kidbit has shown poor judgement, and while I don’t dispute his right to post links to channels on the forum, I would advise against joining his channel. And I am somewhat incredulous at his inability to understand that his channel is not the official AHK channel just because he says it is.

The AHK forum has terms that you have to agree to when you sign up to the forum. They contribute to AHK’s legitimacy.

“…You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material…”
kidbit
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

25 Oct 2013, 11:59

kon wrote:A brief history AFAIK:
that's a total lie, absolutely misinterpreted. You'd better not post crap like this until you know all the details.
question := (2b) || !(2b) © Shakespeare.
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AfterLemon
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

25 Oct 2013, 12:09

Directly from the freenode: Policies http://freenode.net/policy.shtml webpage describing freenode rules and general terms of use.

I am quoting here:

"In accordance with UK law freenode has no tolerance for any activity which could be construed as:

incitement to racial hatred
incitement to religious hatred
or any other behaviour meant to deliberately bring upon a person harassment, alarm or distress. We do NOT tolerate discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, gender, sexual preference or other lifestyle choices and run with a zero-tolerance policy for libel and defamation."

In no way does your last post describe anything that is ALLOWED, TOLERATED, or OFFICIALLY recognized as appropriate OFFICIAL behavior. Your claim to legitimacy and no-rules is still subject to the rules of the network you are using, if not the rules of the community you wish to "Officially" represent. In all ways, your claim to having an "official" channel is unbased, irrational, and intolerable from all angles. A social/unregulated channel you may have, but it CANNOT be the/an official channel and any actions that are violating the freenode policies can (and should) be brought forth to the network.
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tank
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

25 Oct 2013, 12:16

Not going to bicker about what is and isnt true. i think i have proven at least to you kidbit that when a mod is in the wronghe can be held accountable. If you find a specific example of abuse by a MOD please feel free to bring it up to another mod red or green or to me. lets leave this thread to the subject of official vs unofficial norules channel. If the subject digresses further into a he said she said arguement i will move it to offtopic
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kidbit
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

25 Oct 2013, 12:16

AfterLemon wrote:Directly from the freenode: Policies http://freenode.net/policy.shtml webpage describing freenode rules and general terms of use.

I am quoting here:

"In accordance with UK law freenode has no tolerance for any activity which could be construed as:

incitement to racial hatred
incitement to religious hatred
or any other behaviour meant to deliberately bring upon a person harassment, alarm or distress. We do NOT tolerate discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, gender, sexual preference or other lifestyle choices and run with a zero-tolerance policy for libel and defamation.
Following this logic you, me, tank, tlm and bigvent should get permanently banned for our conversations.
Do you want me to publicly expose all of them, which happened on the channels of the irc.freenode.net? No?
Or maybe among the named people I am the only one who was banned on #ahk and #ahkscript for my words?
I'm not denying I'm not saint, but if you suggest all of us to follow the rules you quoted - all of the named people should get banned on irc.freenode.net
question := (2b) || !(2b) © Shakespeare.
kidbit
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

25 Oct 2013, 12:27

tank wrote:Not going to bicker about what is and isnt true. i think i have proven at least to you kidbit that when a mod is in the wronghe can be held accountable. If you find a specific example of abuse by a MOD please feel free to bring it up to another mod red or green or to me. lets leave this thread to the subject of official vs unofficial norules channel. If the subject digresses further into a he said she said arguement i will move it to offtopic
Nope, you almost did so, but finally it appeared that you didn't.
With all the respect, tank. When I got a permission from lexikos to advertise my channel as the official one, tell me what did you do?
When BigVent bans me for no reasons on #ahkscript and then you say that #ahkscript to become official channel of this forum, what do you answer to me, when I remind you that in that case I shall be unbanned there?
Spoiler
shall I remind you your answer "that is another a source of another internal staff conversation" to my question "What is your position, as the administrator of this forum, about the relations of this forum to those irc channels?"?
Spoiler
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kidbit
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

25 Oct 2013, 12:29

AfterLemon wrote:What I am saying is that you are claiming to be allowed to do anything simply because that would be the basis of the channel, but there ARE rules, whether put into force by AutoHotkey forums, ahkscript forums, IRC channel, or freenode. Choose your ruleset, they all disallow the things you are fond of doing. And yes, please, go to the freenode volunteers and tell them of my treachery.

I welcome it.
Then why do you let yourself break those rules? Shall I provide the chat log of our conversation on a channel of the irc.freenode.net's server?

Or in case I stay banned on #ahk - shall I open a dispute with freenode to ban all of us for our words?

Or what you meant is that we can't use freenode's servers then? Well, I don't think that's a big problem to have a chatroom elsewhere. Or we could just open a new chatroom if the old one gets banned by freenode (which is highly unlikely, since they don't give a sh.. about the use of the channels on their server until there are some official complaints (and who would complain after entering a channel with no rules?).
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tank
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

25 Oct 2013, 13:09

feel free to report anything you like. if some rule has been violated you should definately point it out
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
but not in despair; Persecuted‚ but not forsaken; cast down‚ but not destroyed;
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lexikos
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

25 Oct 2013, 20:04

kidbit wrote:Following this logic you, me, tank, tlm and bigvent should get permanently banned for our conversations.
I don't disagree, and wouldn't have a problem with that. :lol:

In all seriousness, the forum and #ahk are not platforms for exercising free speech. They are places to discuss AutoHotkey.
kidbit wrote:[...] I got a permission from lexikos to advertise my channel as the official one [...]
That is a lie.
permission
pəˈmɪʃ(ə)n
noun
1. the action of officially allowing someone to do a particular thing; consent or authorization.
What I said was that "I don't care", and that it is "completely untrue if posted by you without any backing by anyone with authority". You do not have my backing. Maybe I don't care what you call your chat channel, but I care when my words are twisted and my stance is misrepresented.
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tomoe_uehara
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

26 Oct 2013, 09:56

lexikos wrote:What I said was that "I don't care", and that it is "completely untrue if posted by you without any backing by anyone with authority". You do not have my backing. Maybe I don't care what you call your chat channel, but I care when my words are twisted and my stance is misrepresented.
So it's clear, isn't it? :roll:
Any AHK channel should be used positively to build a better community and help each others out.
I know that not all people like the rules on the IRC, because everyone has the right of 'free speech' on the internet, but personally I prefer a clean channel :)

Let's imagine that the channel is a nation, the admin & mods are the government, and we are the citizen.
If there's no government, the citizen will get caught in riot & chaos eventually..
Even though not all citizen agree by the policy made by government, the citizen have to obey it to keep everything in order and run smoothly.

I definitely won't join a channel if every users on it are swearing to each other (for example), uhmmm... I just don't like it :)
kidbit
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

01 Nov 2013, 19:52

lexikos wrote:
kidbit wrote:Following this logic you, me, tank, tlm and bigvent should get permanently banned for our conversations.
I don't disagree, and wouldn't have a problem with that. :lol:

In all seriousness, the forum and #ahk are not platforms for exercising free speech. They are places to discuss AutoHotkey.
kidbit wrote:[...] I got a permission from lexikos to advertise my channel as the official one [...]
That is a lie.
permission
pəˈmɪʃ(ə)n
noun
1. the action of officially allowing someone to do a particular thing; consent or authorization.
What I said was that "I don't care", and that it is "completely untrue if posted by you without any backing by anyone with authority". You do not have my backing. Maybe I don't care what you call your chat channel, but I care when my words are twisted and my stance is misrepresented.
I'm not to apologize for misinterpreting your words, since I asked your a quite direct question:
kidbit wrote:I just need to know if that is okay by you if I will advertise my channel as the "official channel about AHK, without Ops and rules"?
On which you replied "I don't care.", which means you didn't mind me doing so.
And now you do.
Well, ok, I now see you clear, mister.
question := (2b) || !(2b) © Shakespeare.
Morpheus
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

02 Nov 2013, 05:11

Just the idea that a kidbit wants a channel with no mods indicates to me a lack of respect for people in general.
kidbit
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

02 Nov 2013, 10:05

Morpheus
not all people deserve respect, so that's not lack of respect, that's lack of over-respect.
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just me
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

02 Nov 2013, 11:05

kidbit,

what are you fighting for? Everybody following the two threads might know, that you've set up your own channel "without Ops and rules". And everybody willing to join can do it. Others like me won't use IRC at all, regardless of "official" or not. So my answer to the question you asked lexikos might have been "I don't care.", too. But that does not mean: "I agree.".
kidbit
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

02 Nov 2013, 12:34

means you don't disagree either, so your "I don't care" means "do how you like, I don't mind".
just me wrote:what are you fighting for?
I'm not fighting. There's just a little bit of discomfort since now I use proxy and a different nickname to join to #ahkscript on which I'm still banned for no reason.
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tank
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

02 Nov 2013, 14:25

There is reason your banned you may dissagree with that reason but there is a reason
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
but not in despair; Persecuted‚ but not forsaken; cast down‚ but not destroyed;
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If you have forum suggestions please submit a pull request
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tank
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

02 Nov 2013, 14:27

Further more I have offered advise on this that you clearlydont like that advise
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
but not in despair; Persecuted‚ but not forsaken; cast down‚ but not destroyed;
https://www.facebook.com/ahkscript.org
If you have forum suggestions please submit a pull request
Check Out WebWriter
Thanks Tank :thumbup:
lexikos
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

02 Nov 2013, 21:40

kidbit wrote:On which you replied "I don't care.", which means you didn't mind me doing so.
It is not that you misinterpreted my words, but that you later twisted the truth, that I object to. I neither granted nor denied you permission. To do that I would have to care.
Morpheus wrote:Just the idea that a kidbit wants a channel with no mods indicates to me a lack of respect for people in general.
Well said.
kidbit wrote:Morpheus
not all people deserve respect, so that's not lack of respect, that's lack of over-respect.
A lack of respect is what it is, regardless of whether it is "deserved". I'm of the opinion that someone who doesn't show respect in general is not deserving of respect, but that respect should be shown regardless of whether it is deserved. Having respect for someone is not a pre-requisite for showing respect.
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Re: Shall we have an official AHK channel without Ops and ru

02 Nov 2013, 23:19

kidbit wrote:Morpheus
not all people deserve respect, so that's not lack of respect, that's lack of over-respect.
What in the world is over-respect is it like over-eating???

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