Conversation with bugz000

[tank]

interesting proxy idea
[10:17:06 AM] Charlie Simmons: is it a problem with the subdomain being interpreted by dns or are you reading from your cache
[10:36:13 AM] bugz000: no idea- i'd assume its some kind of ddos protection blocking entire IP ranges
[10:36:23 AM] bugz000: hence why it seems patchy with people in regions
[10:36:49 AM] Charlie Simmons: i have 4 machines
[10:37:03 AM] Charlie Simmons: works on one so long as i use chrome
[10:37:08 AM] bugz000: lol what XD
[10:37:10 AM] bugz000: ahha
[10:37:10 AM] Charlie Simmons: works on another if i use IE
[10:37:16 AM] Charlie Simmons: ff is no go accross all 4
[10:37:25 AM] bugz000: okay that's completely thrown me - i use ff
[10:37:28 AM] Charlie Simmons: all same ip range
[10:37:29 AM] bugz000: no idea what the problem is
[10:37:43 AM] Charlie Simmons: yea its very very strange
[10:38:03 AM] bugz000: well theres a proxy up - also a dedicated proxy server on port 83 if you want to use it
[10:38:07 AM] Charlie Simmons: but i appreciate the idea
[10:38:16 AM] Charlie Simmons: i am going to try it actually
[10:38:23 AM] Charlie Simmons: whats the address again?
[10:39:11 AM] bugz000: http://www.bugz000.co.uk/nameless/
[10:39:23 AM] bugz000: it'll redirect to port 82
[10:40:07 AM] bugz000: my server is my old gaming pc running 24/7 does alot of stuff for me
[10:41:00 AM] bugz000: so yah i wanted to ask you where the forum is currently being hosted etc cause i'm assuming it's taking a chunk out of your bank to host
[10:41:28 AM] Charlie Simmons: didnt help
[10:42:09 AM] Charlie Simmons: I have a hosting account anyhow and alot of space
[10:42:15 AM] Charlie Simmons: my only cost was domain name
[10:42:19 AM] Charlie Simmons: however
[10:42:28 AM] Charlie Simmons: from a long term perspective
[10:42:40 AM] Charlie Simmons: its probably not ideal performance
[10:43:05 AM] Charlie Simmons: However
[10:43:08 AM] bugz000: nobody likes adverts everywhere so maybe setting up a donation pool via paypal where people can contribute (probably wont come to anything but you won't get any donations if there's no facility to do so)
my friend has a big server and is looking to upgrade to an even bigger one soon, maybe it'd be worth chatting with him sometime about possible backup service or complete hosting
[10:43:23 AM] bugz000: or a mirror that stands by if the main server goes down
[10:43:40 AM] Charlie Simmons: i Own several servers and for 100 bucks a month i can repurpos and dedicate a full time DB and separate Web server
[10:43:57 AM] Charlie Simmons: 100 a month to cover the business grade IP
[10:44:29 AM] Charlie Simmons: so if performance becomes an issue i can set up some dedicated devices
[10:44:32 AM] Charlie Simmons: but
[10:44:43 AM] Charlie Simmons: that doesnt account for European users
[10:44:59 AM] Charlie Simmons: who still have to make a long haul for request
[10:45:13 AM] Charlie Simmons: and performance would be better for those users with a mirror
[10:45:22 AM] bugz000: http://www.hetzner.de/en/ cheapest hosting provider in EU i've seen
[10:45:46 AM] bugz000: i've had the biggest server from them (hexacore 24gb ram 8TB storage) and it was flawless
[10:45:50 AM] Charlie Simmons: Zailia i think is either friends with or part owner of a small server farm
[10:45:56 AM] Charlie Simmons: She is in france
[10:46:02 AM] Charlie Simmons: Zaelia*
[10:46:12 AM] bugz000: i see so you think you can get some hosting from her for cheaps?
[10:46:23 AM] Charlie Simmons: She has offered free
[10:46:40 AM] Charlie Simmons: but i havent had much conversation expanding on that
[10:47:05 AM] Charlie Simmons: long term i also want to move into SSL
[10:47:05 AM] bugz000: hm, well it'd be worth taking it up - the only tricky bit is synchronising databases across servers and directing people to the right server based on their locale
[10:47:11 AM] bugz000: im not sure how they do that
[10:47:25 AM] Charlie Simmons: That my friend is the job of a load balancer
[10:47:40 AM] bugz000: who'da thunk haha xD
[10:47:58 AM] Charlie Simmons: ir we can filter by ip range alone or even subdomain for Eurousers
[10:48:02 AM] bugz000: just think, using community resources - we'll have a more intricate and reliable service than anything poly could provide
[10:48:10 AM] bugz000: atm we're piggybacking on a server for Powerbot
[10:48:39 AM] bugz000: with this new setup we'll be 100% dedicated with multiple servers, backups, and i bet the overall cost will actually be cheaper in the long run
[10:48:39 AM] Charlie Simmons: I have stayed out except to whine a little over the years
[10:48:48 AM] Charlie Simmons: i dont really have the time for this endeavor
[10:48:59 AM] Charlie Simmons: but i cant sit back and let it collapse in front of me either
[10:49:13 AM] bugz000: well as with any revolution - it just takes one to start running, the rest will soon follow
[10:49:18 AM] Charlie Simmons: I have avoided ever being an admin
[10:49:25 AM] Charlie Simmons: right
[10:49:48 AM] Charlie Simmons: I honestly only intended auto-hotkey.com to be a safe place to plan and discuss
[10:49:58 AM] Charlie Simmons: i had no idea i would get a mass wave
[10:50:01 AM] Charlie Simmons:
[10:50:08 AM] bugz000: i've done alot of community work with the local estate beinging my local area from one of the highest crime rate areas in the UK to one of the lowest, i'm good at working in communities
[10:50:37 AM] bugz000: i started a ball rolling with my "what's happening with this site" thread- it got alot of attention but i never intended on taking it so far- i just wanted to wake poly up
[10:51:01 AM] bugz000: but seems you've taken the ball and made something great from it
[10:51:02 AM] Charlie Simmons: Now that i have taken this on i have to be careful about badmouthing anyone even Poly
[10:51:18 AM] Charlie Simmons: he wont talk and for all we know he is having some sort of very real breakdown
[10:52:02 AM] Charlie Simmons: I am sure there are those that will have plenty to say about what i am doing and how i am doing it
[10:52:13 AM] bugz000: he's a rich kid living a student life, rich parents and successful small business in powerbot, it's more than likely he's in denial atm and it'll hit home what's actually happened soon
[10:52:39 AM] bugz000: wouldn't want to be him when he realises he's lost the community completely
[10:52:56 AM] Charlie Simmons: Oh i take it you know him in more than just as an ahker?
[10:53:17 AM | Edited 10:53:20 AM] bugz000: yes, i've spoke with him frequently trying to boot his ass into gear to fix the site
[10:53:34 AM] bugz000: each time he does a bit more but i get tired of kicking him, i mean shit it's like trying to get a child to tidy their room (worry)
[10:53:39 AM] bugz000: this guys what, 25 now?
[10:53:40 AM] Charlie Simmons: Well if you speak to him again
[10:54:00 AM] Charlie Simmons: I would love to just be allowed to repair whats there
[10:54:10 AM] Charlie Simmons: I dont want to have this level of conflict
[10:54:31 AM] Charlie Simmons: its fun to call names and poke but thats as far as i ever wanted it to go
[10:54:43 AM] Charlie Simmons: FTP access and i can make this whole problem vanish
[10:54:50 AM] Charlie Simmons: within a day i am sure
[10:55:19 AM] bugz000: yup, many many people have begged him for access - it gets really really bad, then he fixes some stuff to keep people quiet, then people wait for more fixes- they dont come, more talk arises
[10:55:35 AM] bugz000: i've been messing in the ahk community for nearly 4 years now and it's been the same the whole way through
[10:56:02 AM] Charlie Simmons: I went back to phpbb3 because its easy to maintain.
[10:56:07 AM] Charlie Simmons: it isnt the fanciest
[10:56:15 AM] Charlie Simmons: it has to work
[10:56:24 AM] Charlie Simmons: or it doesnt mater how awesome it looks
[10:56:25 AM] bugz000: well we can mess with themes etc after - and PROPERLY TEST SHIT before it actually gets implemented
[10:56:37 AM] Charlie Simmons: yea
[10:56:47 AM] bugz000: and not to mention the old ahk forum uses that theme and it works perfectly fine
[10:57:08 AM] Charlie Simmons: i need to get everyone on board (myself included) in a test site and a proper release schedule
[10:57:10 AM] bugz000: poly pays about £100-£200 for the forum theme he currently has so i doubt he'll give it up (also partially why he won't give ftp access)
[10:57:46 AM] Charlie Simmons: It is sad
[10:58:08 AM] Charlie Simmons: I wish i had just stepped up when Chris asked for volunteers
[10:58:41 AM] bugz000: eh its not a failure in the community- many peopel (including myself) have begged for access to help
[10:58:54 AM] bugz000: i mean people BEGGING to help, chris had to ASK for volunteers
[10:59:02 AM] bugz000: thats how dedicated the community is
[10:59:19 AM] Charlie Simmons: No you dont understand. I knew going with Poly would end in disaster
[10:59:36 AM] bugz000: decentralizing the forum decentralizes the community and allows the general contribution from everyone to make the job of maintaining the site completely self sustaining
[11:00:09 AM] Charlie Simmons: I had a working dialog with Chris it would not have been to hard for me to talk him into letting me take over instead of Poly
[11:00:46 AM] Charlie Simmons: and now the damage is stomache turning
[11:00:56 AM] Charlie Simmons: but your right
[11:01:16 AM] Charlie Simmons: open source doesnt work without a community of support and decentralizing
[11:01:49 AM] bugz000: open source software, open source community - we shouldnt have a Head leader - have the finances supported by the people, have the administration supported by the people, afterall you must also remmeber communities aren't static, theyre constantly changing
[11:01:57 AM] bugz000: and having one static leader and one static rulebook does not work
[11:02:15 AM] bugz000: you know every fascist leader in the entire of history has either killed himself or has been killed by his people - it just doesn't work
[11:02:15 AM] Charlie Simmons: NEVER EVER
[11:02:36 AM] Charlie Simmons: Not that a complete democracy works either
[11:03:11 AM] Charlie Simmons: but if someone said to me "Tank can i get some FTP access so i can show you some idea i have" i would give it
[11:03:29 AM] bugz000: you need a center of power (adminsitration) to stop riot mentality (which is what's happening right now against poly)

but not ruling with an iron fist
[11:03:46 AM] Charlie Simmons: if someone said "I dissagree and me and some folks want to leave can i have a copy of everything you have so far?" i would give it
[11:04:11 AM] Charlie Simmons: its very true
[11:04:36 AM] Charlie Simmons: Fincs is really doing alot behind the scenes
[11:05:23 AM] Charlie Simmons: I am considering the idea of letting him execute or at least mediate the execution of the site building and maint
[11:05:52 AM] Charlie Simmons: I have been trying to think about some form of leadership bylaws
[11:06:27 AM] bugz000: whatcha mean
[11:06:33 AM] Charlie Simmons: we need a legal entity to hold a funding account
[11:06:37 AM] bugz000: a form of automated administration for small things?
[11:06:50 AM] bugz000: paypal
[11:07:07 AM] Charlie Simmons: there will inevitably be times when some site issue will require a contractor because of time availability or skill deficiency
[11:07:21 AM] Charlie Simmons: I was going to say paypal as well
[11:07:37 AM] bugz000: i mean my friend runs his entire business from paypalm
[11:07:41 AM] bugz000: paypal*
[11:07:42 AM] Charlie Simmons: I use Paypal for my other business
[11:08:29 AM] Charlie Simmons: Oddly i work for a competing Credit card company
[11:08:41 AM] bugz000: ahah xD
[11:08:56 AM] Charlie Simmons: but we need a legal entity to own the account
[11:09:06 AM] Charlie Simmons: there is to much risk of a single person owning it
[11:09:13 AM] bugz000: well i say paypal cause its easy for website donation button integration - its well known, its secure, and its got all the legal shit sorted out already
[11:09:18 AM] bugz000: so no pissing about
[11:09:23 AM] Charlie Simmons: and i am a developer not a business manager
[11:09:31 AM] bugz000: OH i see
[11:09:35 AM] bugz000: who owns the account
[11:09:41 AM] Charlie Simmons: we dont have one yet
[11:09:54 AM] Charlie Simmons: but we need to define the entity first
[11:09:59 AM] Charlie Simmons: then open the account
[11:11:10 AM] Charlie Simmons: that way the funding and the domain can be owned by the entity and we can never have this loss of control again
[11:11:48 AM] Charlie Simmons: I also want to build a paid scripting exchange
[11:11:52 AM] Charlie Simmons: separately
[11:12:14 AM] Charlie Simmons: but the profits can fund the open source entity
[11:12:48 AM] bugz000: a safe place where someone can say "i want this written" and they can only accept the source code if they send money
[11:12:59 AM] Charlie Simmons: I imagine the Poker world will be all over it first
[11:13:08 AM] Charlie Simmons: yes
[11:13:21 AM] bugz000: that'd work fine if you couldnt read the damn source in the executable files
[11:13:39 AM] bugz000: hm
[11:13:48 AM] Charlie Simmons: thats just a matter of encryption
[11:14:00 AM] Charlie Simmons: Lexikos stripped it out because of all the false virus reports
[11:14:03 AM] bugz000: aye - also you'd need some kind of seller/buyer feedback
[11:14:08 AM] bugz000: feedback goes a LONG way into trust
[11:14:13 AM] Charlie Simmons: yes
[11:14:51 AM] Charlie Simmons: but that is a place for a revenue generating business that also supports the open source community
[11:16:14 AM] Charlie Simmons: the site would just extract a per transaction fee or a membership fee
[11:16:20 AM] Charlie Simmons: wouldnt need to be much
[11:17:02 AM] Charlie Simmons: anyhow
[11:17:21 AM] bugz000: well if all goes to plan this sounds really good, be moving from a centralized system where its Product -> Forum -> Documentation
[11:17:26 AM] Charlie Simmons: I need to get back on target with this foundation bylaw thing
[11:17:41 AM] bugz000: to pretty much an entire business where people can start off freelance development
[11:17:50 AM] Charlie Simmons: right
[11:17:56 AM] bugz000: less of marketing a product to a hub for assistance and development
[11:18:03 AM] Charlie Simmons: for this to grow we need to take a page from apache and linux
[11:18:14 AM] Charlie Simmons: offer paid support and development
[11:18:25 AM] Charlie Simmons: a certification program as well
[11:18:57 AM] bugz000: we need to get in contact with lexikos to add in some code obfuscation
[11:19:05 AM] Charlie Simmons: then it becomes self funding and perpetuating
[11:19:09 AM] bugz000: goes a long way into making paid service possible
[11:21:49 AM] bugz000: maybe some licencing, so the program has 10 uses based on a code given to you on accepting a solution submission to your request - then once it's fixed up and you like it- you accept it and the money goes off

and the money is taken off you on submitting the request and is held by ahk until either cancellation or acceptance

maybe even have the guy who submits the code set the ammount of uses the code will give them

all just ideas mind we can go a long way with this- with cooperation with lexikos this can become a new foundation for something awesome
[11:22:21 AM] Charlie Simmons: open source applications make money off of support
[11:22:27 AM] Charlie Simmons: and they do quite well
[11:22:37 AM] Charlie Simmons: they dont charge by use or redist
[11:23:47 AM] Charlie Simmons: I think we would alienate alot of people by trying to follow a per use/instal purchase model
[11:23:50 AM] bugz000: because there will always be new innovations and new developments with both the product and other products that product works with - you're exploiting the passive progression of general innovation for cash rather than relying on yourself, advertising and marketing to make the wheels turn and haul in the cash
[11:24:38 AM] bugz000: and i'm on about the code idea just for the paid support system so people can't go scamming as easy - you must remember most of AHK is kids wanting it to play games for them, and most of them don't intend on paying a penny
[11:24:42 AM] Charlie Simmons: in my mind Lexikos cannot continue to be the only contributor
[11:24:53 AM] Charlie Simmons: we have to attract multiple developers
[11:25:06 AM] Charlie Simmons: I dont want to diminish his role
[11:25:23 AM] Charlie Simmons: but much like the site maintainance he is a single point of failure
[11:25:48 AM] Charlie Simmons: i fear the day he looses interest or gets to the magical place where its "done"
[11:26:00 AM] bugz000: make him the head dev and he can delegate tasks to the others, that'd keep him in control of stuff cause if everyone is developing AHK to the way they want- you'll end up with an argument and suddenly you'll have 15 different forks of AHK, big mess, it's already annoying with _B _L and V2
[11:26:19 AM] bugz000: then when he wants to leave he can put someone else in charge
[11:26:30 AM] Charlie Simmons: on that note
[11:26:37 AM] Charlie Simmons: i havent told any one
[11:26:48 AM] Charlie Simmons: but i intend to do away with _b and _l
[11:26:54 AM] Charlie Simmons: strict version numbers
[11:27:09 AM] bugz000: _B becomes V1, _L becomes V2?
[11:27:10 AM] Charlie Simmons: with a note on when Lexikos took over
[11:27:22 AM] Charlie Simmons: nope same version numbers they have now
[11:27:34 AM] bugz000: oh so V1.82332 or whatever it is now xD
[11:27:37 AM] Charlie Simmons: just get rid of the _L and _B nonsense
[11:27:44 AM] Charlie Simmons: yes
[11:27:50 AM] Charlie Simmons: its idiotic
[11:28:00 AM] Charlie Simmons: one is a continuation
[11:28:04 AM] Charlie Simmons: not an alternate
[11:28:22 AM] bugz000: it'd make sense if it was like ironahk
[11:28:23 AM] bugz000: a fork
[11:28:38 AM] bugz000: but _B is no longer developed so aye, just makes sense
[11:28:47 AM] Charlie Simmons: right where there were even some compatibility breakage
[11:29:08 AM] Charlie Simmons: but with lexikos it was just build on top of
[11:29:28 AM] Charlie Simmons: it makes no sense to refer to them as alternates
[11:30:55 AM] bugz000: well to get that working you'll have to get the support and agreement of the community- each decision you want to make, pitch it to the community with a poll, and have a probation period afterwards for the ones who weren't paying attention and suddenly appear on the forum like "WHY HAS _L AND _B GONE!!!"
[11:31:15 AM] Charlie Simmons: yes
[11:31:46 AM] Charlie Simmons: that like so many things outside of support documentation and making the old forum data searchable is secondary
[11:32:22 AM] Charlie Simmons: once that much is done and a permanant domain is established. we can talk about new direction in detail
[11:32:50 AM] Charlie Simmons: we are not fully up and running yet
[11:33:08 AM] bugz000: also i think its important to broadcast communications you have somewhere, not sure how but it shows discussions and what's happening behind the scenes, part of what a community loves is being involved
[11:33:21 AM] bugz000: and an easy way to make them involved without actually HAVING them involved is being transparent
[11:33:39 AM] bugz000: so for example copy/paste this conversation somewhere
[11:34:00 AM] Charlie Simmons: I have very few serious conversations outside the forum
[11:34:11 AM] Charlie Simmons: but yes i aggree
[11:34:18 AM] Charlie Simmons: we must remain transparent
[11:34:18 AM] bugz000: that way people can read it - if something takes their interest or sees an idea they can help make a reality- they can take action towards it
[11:34:47 AM] bugz000: another mistake poly makes
[11:35:02 AM] bugz000: no changelog, no communication, no transparency, and no indication on what he plans
[11:35:09 AM] bugz000: its like sitting on a loose rocket
[11:35:10 AM] Charlie Simmons: Not just Poly whole corp entities do it
[11:35:10 AM] bugz000: rofl
[11:35:16 AM] bugz000: a very slow loose rocket...
[11:35:16 AM] Charlie Simmons: others are very transparent
[11:35:36 AM] Charlie Simmons: i have worked in both
[11:35:55 AM] Charlie Simmons: and let me tell you its an amazing amount of support when people can see what your doing
[11:35:59 AM] Charlie Simmons: even when they disagree
[11:36:46 AM] Charlie Simmons: People are OK with not getting what they want if you are willing to tell them what your doing and why
[11:37:41 AM] Charlie Simmons: and knowing who is in charge and who they can complain to
[11:37:42 AM] bugz000: how can you have enthusiasm and passion in something which you have no bearing on - sure some diehard fans will stick around but if your word truly matters and makes a difference, EVEN IF IT DOESNT MAKE A DIFFERENCE- if its heard and acknowledged, you're much more likely to stick around
[11:38:18 AM] bugz000: because you know What you said, Why you said it
you know what you said has been read and taken into account
and you know why it's not been acted upon
[11:38:20 AM] Charlie Simmons: i think we both aggree on that statement right there
[11:38:23 AM] bugz000: transparency again see
[11:39:50 AM] Charlie Simmons: ok well its lunch time here
[11:40:16 AM] Charlie Simmons: feel free to contact me any time and if i dont respond right away I will upon return
[11:41:01 AM] bugz000: awesome enjoy lunch dude
[11:41:01 AM] bugz000: ciao

[Zelio]

"She has offered free"
Sorry to break your male dream, but I am a boy... was not hidden, legacy of golden rule when you pick a girl in a old mmorpg for to have more help when you ask... I never say something like that, maybe you confuse with Eedis (it was in deleted post by Poly). only thing I said about free thing was to use one.com for have a sandbox with a free domain name...

Else yeah why not server in america and a cached proxy in europe, but we only have 150 ms ping, don't need to be at 50 ms, ask to a russian ( betwen china an europe, still good to africa ). Interesting I wonder how that work exaclty.

[tank]

[Zelio]

yeah you fall in the girl name effect I fall in this trap too, I never changed it is my fault , they know on IRC...

We haven't see Eedis, new name ? but it was a friend of him who has a farm server, I don't know if we can trust, but it was free...
http://www.ahkarchive.com/archive/AutoH ... munity.htm (haven't page 9)

edit: I "masculate" my name...

[Alibaba]

thx for posting this and being transparent!

I really like the idea of a place for paid scripting exchange.

[lexikos]

[11:26:37 AM] Charlie Simmons: i havent told any one
[11:26:48 AM] Charlie Simmons: but i intend to do away with _b and _l

Hasn't that already been done? The installer and documentation refer to the program as "AutoHotkey" ("1.1" and "1.0" when distinction is required). Only some users of the forum are sometimes still referring to "AutoHotkey_L" and "AutoHotkey Basic", and you have no control over that. I suspect that new users coming to autohotkey.com and downloading the program never see "AutoHotkey_L".

http://www.autohotkey.com/docs/ still refers to "AutoHotkey_L", but that's only because someone's been extremely lazy and still hasn't updated that documentation.

[joedf]

+1 I love it that you say "someone"...

[tank]

That's kind of what I meant . Of course I have no control of the users.

[Zelio]

Make a rule in admin and modo section, to promote "AHK 1.1" as a convention naming, and maybe to edit some post (for reader).
I used a lot AHK_L (my mistake), and every time I heard that break compatibility, but when I use AHK 1.1 I haven't this reaction.