>>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

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HinkerLoden
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>>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

17 Apr 2016, 09:08

I follow now intensive the Ask for help Thread. Its a good thing and its a big part (most posts and Views) of the Forum. The problem is that you cant find a specific thing you want. (Google search mostly picks entries from the old forum what completely messed up any focused search :headwall: )

I think there are many reasons why this thread got many many entries what are 50 % could be answered if the user would take a look in the documentation/Tutorial/faq. 25% results of a not really beginner friendly Tutorial added with crazy order inside the Documentation. But i try to fix this and a HowTo is atm under construction 8-) . Thats my opinion. But the messed up Thread confirm me in this.
20 % are "I am Lazy and i want a ready solution" :crazy: or user who cant use the Forumsearch within the right options. ohh yeah, doubleposts for the win. No it isnt :evil:

5% are really interesting and helpfully topics. But how to locate them. Right, just open a new Topic. :dance: So they get lost in the Haystack. ....

But lets take a look at some search Results.
I leave the search settings as standard. Cause on this way the most user go this way.
After the Slash only in Topic

8453 matches: msgBox / 37 matches: MsgBox :o
7330 matches: Loop / 209 matches: loop
6451 matches: Window / 335 matches: Window :!:
4314 matches: click / 175 matches: click
3393 matches: open / 71 matches: open
2040 matches: move / 50 matches: move
3980 matches: hotkey / 244 matches: hotkey :!:
3575 matches: Mouse / 249 matches: Mouse :!:
2577 matches: question / 111 matches: question :!:
1880 matches: keyboard /110 matches: keyboard :!:
1328 matches: label / 35 matches: label

5969 matches: problem :mrgreen: / 207 matches: problem :bravo:
Sure you have a problem. Otherwise they would post nothing there :headwall:

just some examples. We know how get a data structure of these things. Especially for the helpthread. but thats not the topic here. I think you got an idea what i want to show here.

Why to restructure now the Help Thread ?
To help everyone to find Topics you want to search.
Prevent of DoublePosts (Solved questions).
Get more active people / active Threads. And this i really one of the things that really could bring the forum into another level. Every one got other knowledges or experience with other Languages.

In the optimal case the nooby get a solution --> from a beginner.
The beginner --> from the advanced user.
The advanced --> from the Experienced
The Experience --> from the HardCore super Swaggy Coders / admins /mods ... :mrgreen:

Sometimes i see answers on a simple question that offers a high end solution. Thats ok. But it doesnt help. Cause the beginner dont know to handle object/arrays whatever.
Create now subcategories for different level of Code experience. Very difficult. But maybe interlace the tread into each other. The mods could handle the the movement into the subs.

Main-Thread-Help (nooby-sort out area) - 15 days
Sub - Beginner (no arrays/no object/no com, ahk only , easy functions) - 30 days
Sub - Advanced (ahk only, advanced functions, library based ) - 90 days or more ?
Sub - experienced (other languages (c++,MC,java?,html,..) - no limit

just some thoughts.
Each Thread should get some settings if the topics timeout if they are inactive. ( i know you can do this settings for each topic) So the nooby section clear out itself. The mods got 15 days to answer or get it into the right subsection. This is really important. Maybe here some things gone lost. But i think the pros are better instead of feeding the haystack.

In the end every serious question should be end in a solution on 2 ways.
1.) There is a Explicit answer to the Question what can found in the Documentation or it exist a Solution inside the Scriptsection. --> Topic Close
2. ) There is a Solution integrate into a useful Script. Move into Scriptsection with PreTag. [Solved] Why leave inside the help section. There is no reason.

In the end. Sure it need some time to do it. But in the End it result of a better Forum/Community, cause it catches the user on the level they are atm. A last into a Faster coding process , cause you find what you need. More time for the mods, cause they can help the people who really need your support.
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tidbit
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

17 Apr 2016, 11:41

You keep mentioning that the beginner tutorial (https://autohotkey.com/docs/Tutorial.htm) is not good/advanced/complex.
Mind explaining why?

it covers the basics of downloading ahk, installing and creating a script file.
then goes on to show (and explain) how to make the most basic feature in ahk: a hotkey
it also contains all the links your tutorial attempt has, such as documentation, command list and other links.
It covers common issues and things like hotkey symbols (!#+^) and what they mean and how to send/simulate keys.
It then covers some basic issues like %'s and :='s. the detail isn't fully in-depth, but it has plenty of examples. This is just a basic guide/tutorial, not a full AHK book.

as for this topic:
the major issue is people don't search. splitting everything into sub-groups will do nothing since they still need to search. It mght even make it worse since they'd have to search multiple places. A lot of newbies think their issue is "simple" but in reality it's quite advanced so they would post (or search) in the wrong section.
We already have a Gaming sub-section and quite a bit of people fail to post their game questions there. It seems pretty obvious that "I'm doing this for <game>, I should ask in Ask for Help -> Gaming". but people don't pay attention or care.
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nnnik
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

17 Apr 2016, 11:54

the major issue is people don't search.
Its tough finding the topic you are searching for even when you know parts of the topic title.
The problem isn't that people aren't searching, it is the fact that searching an answer to your specific problem does not seem to lead to finding a topic that covers the specific problem.
And in reality you will rarely find an answer to your problem by searching with some randomly picked keywords that describe your problem on Google.
Even if your Keywords are accurate that won't mean that any topic title solving your Problem will contain any of those keywords.
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tidbit
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

17 Apr 2016, 11:58

mildly offtopic: is there still a link to the old beginner tutorial? that could be in the docs too, something like "Old tutorial". Maybe they would find that version simpler (covers less topics) to follow.
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HinkerLoden
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

17 Apr 2016, 14:01

I dont wanna blame you and i respect what you had written. Dont understand me wrong. But i want to tell you the truth so you can get my opinion.
The Tutorial is good for the frequently used commands. But you just throw some command with short descriptions in the Room. Its more a short "some frequently used stuff" with a bit of explaining.
I missed a Mouse section. The how to install is absolute unnecessary and bloody hell. If someone dont know to edit a file with a editor, get the old typewriter out of the basement :headwall: .

A Tutorial is that there are not more Questions as i had before. You do here exactly the opposite thing and link for more informations. One practical example with all the things here would explain everything and even more. Even the sub with the objects is a thing of its own. No one has to know that at the start. It getting interesting if you have to handle more data. You are explaining a bit modular not logical based on the level you want to submit the reader. ( i hope you get the idea what i mean) You explain for example the Hotkey possibilities on some different ways. Some more options. And if you want more look up more here or there.

https://autohotkey.com/docs/Scripts.htm#Scripts this is more a tutorial. And here is some more really useful stuff about Escape sequences or the auto-execute section.
You keep mentioning that the beginner tutorial (https://autohotkey.com/docs/Tutorial.htm) is not good/advanced/complex.
Mind explaining why?
Good to get a quick list of possiblities. Advanced/challenging if you are really have no experience with other languages and to complex for a tutorial.
Its tough finding the topic you are searching for even when you know parts of the topic title.
Sure. The problem is only the old forum what drives me crazy. You search something. after 10 variations you get a result that fits and you get linked in the old forum. After reading 10 sites you get a link into the new one. only 2 posts there and it ends: Fixed in version X. There was a case it ends on this way.

What i want to improve is that the massive Help-Spam flood the forum and this makes it nearly impossible to search something here. From Outside you get many link from the old one. Its really time that you handle this. It is boring and really annoying to stuck into many deadends.
But in most cases i can fix a problem i found in the old one. Maybe the google-search result still prioritize the old one. So if you really want to do something against the search problematic, the old forum should be shut down.
Btw. why is it still available.
GeekDude
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

17 Apr 2016, 14:13

Complaining about the tutorial isn't going to make it any better. AutoHotkey, and by extension its documentation, are open source and freely editable. If there are parts of the tutorial you find to be poorly or too shallowly explained, or even completely omitted, you are encouraged to add or fix as you see fit. You can find the source for the tutorial page from the docs here: https://github.com/Lexikos/AutoHotkey_L ... torial.htm. All you need to start editing is some working knowledge of HTML and a GitHub account.

As for why the old forum is still available, that's just standard practice to keep older information for posterity. Just because there is new material doesn't mean the older material is useless, or should be removed. At the risk of sounding crass, I'd say it's metaphorically similar to not euthanizing the elderly just because they aren't with the times.
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tidbit
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

17 Apr 2016, 14:14

"I dont wanna blame you and i respect what you had written. Dont understand me wrong. But i want to tell you the truth so you can get my opinion. "
No need to be afraid to speak your mind (even to mods/admins) :). I did ask for your opinion afterall.

"The how to install is absolute unnecessary and bloody hell. If someone dont know to edit a file with a editor, get the old typewriter out of the basement :headwall: ."
BTW, there are tons of people with issues installing/using AHK, it is an FAQ, thus why it is added to the tutorial. Just because it's obvious to you doesn't make it for others, especially those who have never even heard of "scripts" or "programming" before stumbling upon AHK somehow. They don't know AHK makes a context menu, or that you need to give the file a ".ahk" extension. and they probably don't know how to run it either.
I have proposed a solution to this long ago, here: https://www.autohotkey.com/boards/viewt ... 426#p34426

"to complex for a tutorial. "
I asked you to explain what makes it complex, I explained why I thought it wasn't complex. It covers the very basics (even explaining how to setup ahk, which to you is too simple to include in the tutorial) with bare-minimal code samples to not overwhelm beginners. It shows basic possibilities and explains them, then gives you more resources (documentation links) to try stuff out or learn the full details.
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Xtra
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

17 Apr 2016, 23:24

As for why the old forum is still available,

Because there is a lot of information to be found there that's why! Not everyone uses the latest version of ahk are you going to find alot of ahk v 1.0 info on ahk.org? No, I don't care where i find info at... just the fact that i find it and i always find it.

Prevent of DoublePosts (Solved questions).

Double posts are mainly from people who do not care to search by any means or even want to learn how to use ahk. These type of people just want it now and do not care how.The help file is written so well it covers 99% of the questions asked.

Get more active people / active Threads.
The people offering to help do so on their own time.How do you propose getting more active people are you going to pay them or something?What is an active thread? One that has many replies that the solution was not given quik enough or one that the poster kept asking for more that was never stated in the original post?

I have never really seen a problem with the beginner tutorial when you first are learning ahk it's helpful for a couple days and then you find the help file...
The only way the help file can be made better is to provide more examples of code but that really would only show more of the potential of ahk and the ways it can be used. (it's not important but would be nice to see)

Opinions are like... :idea:
...everyone has one.
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nnnik
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

18 Apr 2016, 05:17

Double posts are mainly from people who do not care to search by any means or even want to learn how to use ahk. These type of people just want it now and do not care how.The help file is written so well it covers 99% of the questions asked.
As said above this is not true. I made a lot of double topics myself, when I was a newbie.

I personally think that the way things are going is fine.
Maybe we could add a system similar to tagging where we tag each topic in a certain way with predefined Tags.
But I don't think it is a necessity.
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joedf
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

18 Apr 2016, 07:53

The older forum will remain as such.
However, I do agree I could get the Google to index this. The search does need some fixing. :( Otherwise, my position is neutral on this. :)
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

21 Apr 2016, 23:43

What I really find annoying: doing a simple google search for "autohotkey blahblahblah" leads to search results with most of its toplevel findings in the OLD forum (and hoping for a still valid solution in a 5-10 year old thread is optimistic). Even a search on "autohotkey boards" has the first hit: https://autohotkey.com/board/ ....

I don't want to blame anybody (but goolge) - I just want to express my annoyance about this
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HinkerLoden
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

23 Apr 2016, 05:59

seems the discussion goes more in the direction -> Close the old Forum.
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nnnik
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

23 Apr 2016, 06:31

No I disagree.
There is massive amount of content that is only available in the old forums - that people wrote who were only present in the old forums.
A good example would be Bentschis Socket class.
I've seen a lot of people using this script and a lot of others he created.
He never officially left the forums but he hasn't been online since quite a while.
Most of his content is only in the old forums - just like this script.
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

23 Apr 2016, 09:13

There's no change on this. As I have said, this was decided long ago. The old forum will remain as Archived. Done. No negotiation, that was when the poll was open.
:/
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Xtra
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

23 Apr 2016, 16:30

If you want to only search this forum aka boards :idea: try this:

:arrow: https://cse.google.com/cse/publicurl?cx ... ved6rfvrlq
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

23 Apr 2016, 21:26

HinkerLoden wrote:seems the discussion goes more in the direction -> Close the old Forum.
That would be a terrible idea. Fixing the search, I agree... but there is still a lot of useful information at the old forum!
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Re: >>> ASK FOR HELP - RESTRUCTURE <<<

24 Apr 2016, 23:46

Same here - no demand for closing the old forum ...
Xtra wrote:If you want to only search this forum aka boards :idea: try this:

:arrow: https://cse.google.com/cse/publicurl?cx ... ved6rfvrlq
I know - nevertheless it's annoying to have an own link for specially searching the new forum. I think its REALLY annoying for newbies, trying to start with AHK and find via google search(not knowing special forum search) mostly outdated, non up-to-date info :?

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