Reminding new members to use code tags

Discuss issues and requests related with the forum software
User avatar
Scr1pter
Posts: 1069
Joined: 06 Aug 2017, 08:21
Location: Germany

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

15 Mar 2019, 18:38

Is it possible to create some kind of beta forum so that we can try out such things without disturbing the main forum?

Or maybe some test section within this forum?
Once we find a good solution/compromise, we can make it final.

Cheers!
Please use code tags when posting code!
Keyboard: Logitech G15 FE - Mice: Logitech G9 FE, G502 FE, G602 - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 Bit - AHK version: 1.1.29.00
User avatar
tidbit
Posts: 1131
Joined: 29 Sep 2013, 17:15
Location: USA

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

15 Mar 2019, 18:42

phpbb is freee and opensource. you can set it up locally, develop the addon, thoroughly test it (make sure its fast too, because server strain), then hand it to tank/joe to try. don't forget to test scenarios of people just linking to many doc pages ([.doc] tag or otherwise)

for best effect: keep it minimally invasive, easy to use, minimal clicks, minimal reading.
rawr. fear me.
*poke*
Is it December 21, 2012 yet?
User avatar
nnnik
Posts: 4223
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 01:01
Location: Germany

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

15 Mar 2019, 19:28

The feature needs to detect the locale of the user and display the message in their language.
Otherwise I personally wouldn't want to block out people that can't understand it due to the language barrier.
It doesn't need to support all languages - just the languages this forum offers forums for.
Recommends AHK Studio
gregster
Posts: 2658
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 06:48

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

15 Mar 2019, 21:43

Afaics, most users who stay with the forum, appreciate and use code tags as soon as they get used to the forum layout. That new users don't have the overview and other priorities instead, I can live with, as long as practical solutions are missing.

Let's not forget that many new users already have difficulties with the new (and unfortunately, necessary) rules for links and quotes, registering, captchas, general blocking rules on different levels and understanding of the approval mechanism. I wouldn't like to see another potential obstacle or even ban users who don't use them - and visual reminders just don't work, whatever you do.

If there would be a very reliable mechanism which adds tags without slowing down the forum and being intrusive for the majority of tag-abiding users, okay... I feel like there are other priorities, but if you feel strongly about it and want to invest time...
User avatar
tank
Posts: 2748
Joined: 28 Sep 2013, 22:15
Facebook: charlie.simmons.7334
Google: ttnnkkrr
GitHub: ttnnkkrr
Location: Irving TX
Contact:

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

16 Mar 2019, 09:02

You are right it sounds simple. Show me the code
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
but not in despair; Persecuted‚ but not forsaken; cast down‚ but not destroyed;
https://www.facebook.com/ahkscript.org
If you have forum suggestions please submit a pull request
Thanks Tank :thumbup:
kyuuuri
Posts: 204
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:20

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

16 Mar 2019, 12:54

Spanish is my main language so in case you need to translate the message you can count with me
User avatar
Scr1pter
Posts: 1069
Joined: 06 Aug 2017, 08:21
Location: Germany

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

16 Mar 2019, 13:08

What about some Kind of supporting group
who's only permission is to:
- edit a post
- Mark a text block
- add code tags
- save post

In that case it's almost impossible to destroy anything.

Is this something that could be realized easily?
The whole process might take like 5 - 10 seconds.
(To fix such posts)

Cheers!
Please use code tags when posting code!
Keyboard: Logitech G15 FE - Mice: Logitech G9 FE, G502 FE, G602 - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 Bit - AHK version: 1.1.29.00
User avatar
tank
Posts: 2748
Joined: 28 Sep 2013, 22:15
Facebook: charlie.simmons.7334
Google: ttnnkkrr
GitHub: ttnnkkrr
Location: Irving TX
Contact:

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

16 Mar 2019, 15:12

You volunteering to edit posts?
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
but not in despair; Persecuted‚ but not forsaken; cast down‚ but not destroyed;
https://www.facebook.com/ahkscript.org
If you have forum suggestions please submit a pull request
Thanks Tank :thumbup:
User avatar
Scr1pter
Posts: 1069
Joined: 06 Aug 2017, 08:21
Location: Germany

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

16 Mar 2019, 16:15

I would do it, yes.

Cheers!
Please use code tags when posting code!
Keyboard: Logitech G15 FE - Mice: Logitech G9 FE, G502 FE, G602 - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 Bit - AHK version: 1.1.29.00
User avatar
jeeswg
Posts: 6539
Joined: 19 Dec 2016, 01:58
Location: UK

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

22 Mar 2019, 10:09

- There is nowhere prominent on the forum telling users to use code tags. It's nonsensical for admins/mods to be annoyed or surprised that users don't use code tags.
- Many users won't even know that the concept of code tags exists. And if no-one asks you to use them, it's a personal choice whether you use them or not.

- @tidbit/tank: You say you've been trying things for years!? Right now I see no evidence of anything being tried.
- You could place the phrase 'please use code tags' somewhere, for all users under 100 posts, for both the 'Quick Reply' and 'Full Editor & Preview' modes.
- That could link to a 4-part image like the one I outlined earlier: code with tags + appearance, code without tags + appearance.
- You could even have a page for new users, with the 4-word phrase in multiple languages, saying 'please use code tags', followed by the image.

- And/or there could also be a more prominent link to this page:
AutoHotkey Community - BBCode guide
https://autohotkey.com/boards/help/bbcode#f2r1
- With further tags mentioned, e.g. 'c', and perhaps further images added.
- With 'code' tags mentioned at the very top.
homepage | tutorials | wish list | fun threads | donate
WARNING: copy your posts/messages before hitting Submit as you may lose them due to CAPTCHA
User avatar
tidbit
Posts: 1131
Joined: 29 Sep 2013, 17:15
Location: USA

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

22 Mar 2019, 10:39

were you watching us for a decade as we tried many things? have you ever been to IRC?

the recommended web IRC is kiwiirc, which is linked in the page and is the most often client we see join the room (by new users. we can tell by their host name when they join)
the channel topic is:
**READ THIS BEFORE ASKING** | Welcome to the official AutoHotkey IRC Channel! | *Ask your question. Not asking is the best way to NOT get help* | Share your code: http://p.ahkscript.org | Be patient, polite & respectful (no profanity please!) | Latest Version: https://autohotkey.com/download | AHK "Went to White Castle aswell.
this is how it looks:
Image

the channel topic is mentioned twice, the top kinda hard to see one is ALWAYS visible, outside the message area.
Then there's the one that is literally the first message when you join. in a bright yellow easy to notice box grabbing your attention.
we've had various takes on this message, even incentives for those who find/report some keyword in the middle of it to identify those who read.

not only that, kiwi has "lots of lines being pasted" detection. Image
Even this doesn't prevent us from a lot of users trying to post 70+ line files in chat. As in, a wall of text. not in a pastebin. Which will get them kicked (not by us, but by Freenode Spam Prevention)

aswell as other attempted stuff.

Same goes for discord. in there, you have to wait 10 minutes before posting. and iirc, read the rules to find some command/key to unlock your account (common on discord. widdle out bots and people who don't try/read/listen). Guess how much people post in the wrong section or with no code tags (yes, discord has code highlighting/tags)? A lot.

Same for the forum. Just because we tried stuff in the past doesn't mean we kept everything attempted and kept piling on new systems, that would be horrible for everyone. In the end, we can't win against people not exploring & thinking & trying. So unless someone new, like you, wants to take a stab at coding a non-intrusive code detection algo in the form of a phpbb plugin, its useless to try further,
rawr. fear me.
*poke*
Is it December 21, 2012 yet?
User avatar
sinkfaze
Posts: 609
Joined: 01 Oct 2013, 08:01

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

22 Mar 2019, 10:48

jeeswg wrote:
22 Mar 2019, 10:09
It's nonsensical for admins/mods to be annoyed or surprised that users don't use code tags.
We're neither annoyed nor surprised.
jeeswg wrote:
22 Mar 2019, 10:09
Many users won't even know that the concept of code tags exists.
On a scripting site?!
jeeswg wrote:
22 Mar 2019, 10:09
You say you've been trying things for years!? Right now I see no evidence of anything being tried.
With all due respect, you haven't been around these forums for as long as we have.

EDIT: What tidbit said. And tidbit was by far the most active in trying to tackle this problem.
User avatar
tidbit
Posts: 1131
Joined: 29 Sep 2013, 17:15
Location: USA

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

22 Mar 2019, 11:09

at one point I made a series of images (which you found).
at at another point I even made an interactive set of tutorials: "tidtorials". flash based interactive slideshow tool using Wink most are long dead, I didn't save them, RIP :(
covering a wide range of topics, such as how to "search for yourself" and asking questions / posting code.
rawr. fear me.
*poke*
Is it December 21, 2012 yet?
User avatar
jeeswg
Posts: 6539
Joined: 19 Dec 2016, 01:58
Location: UK

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

22 Mar 2019, 11:39

- @tidbit: There's an overload of information in the Kiwi IRC image.
- This is confusing, I might remove it:
*Ask your question. Not asking is the best way to NOT get help*
- This is confusing also:
Share your code: http://p.ahkscript.org
- Share implies give, maybe they want the code to be private.
- The message warns them about posting code, but why can't they post code directly, the IRC is about coding.

- I would use a simple warning/link, not code detection.

- I'd expect people to still omit code tags, but a smaller, more acceptable number.
- On the forum, how many first-time coders use code tags? Especially when there is no notification.

- @sinkfaze: Many people here aren't coders. They will see something in the forum, and not know the nature of what they're seeing e.g. phpBB code tags/unique html/images, and will have no conception of how they can do it themselves.

- @tidbit/sinkfaze: For the last 2 years I saw nothing to tell me 'please use code tags', and the tag help (BBCode help) is very hard to find, and only on the preview page. I tried to find it again today, and it took a short while, you hover over the word 'BBCode'. How many will have heard of BBCode?
- I specifically said that *right now* users see no reminder, i.e. 0 measures are currently in place.
- This is a tough issue, for this kind of thing I'd generally get multiple people on a team, over a long period, to consider and tweak the approach.
- I think I could tweak your ideas, I think you could tweak my ideas. Something related to how multiple users interpret something, by nature, benefits from multiple viewpoints.
- Also, I think only a small number have the kind of 'understanding' skills to be effective at this kind of task. It has little to do with intelligence or effort.
- Btw how do other websites handle this issue?
- Also, did you ever have *any* success? You both, and tank, make it sound like previous efforts were a total failure.
- Btw have you noticed meme culture, how hard but effective it is when you encapsulate an idea, I don't even find this particularly easy, but some people can do it.
- Don't you roll your eyes when you hear people complain that something relatively small or simple is impossible? Or when people fail for decades to achieve something, when next door has got it working?
- Comments like: 'oh, we've tried everything, compared to us, you don't know what you're talking about, take it from us, failure is assured, you have nothing to contribute'. I have my doubts. And you would too seeing it from my perspective.
homepage | tutorials | wish list | fun threads | donate
WARNING: copy your posts/messages before hitting Submit as you may lose them due to CAPTCHA
User avatar
tidbit
Posts: 1131
Joined: 29 Sep 2013, 17:15
Location: USA

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

22 Mar 2019, 11:47

" The message warns them about posting code, but why can't they post code directly, the IRC is about coding"
you don't know what irc is do you.
trying to edit peoples code when all their lines begin with usernames and timestamps is impossible. then they'd have to paste it all back in their editor with timestamps.
Image

Code: Select all

 11:42 @tidbit : gui, font, s8, Tahoma
 11:42 @tidbit : Gui, add, button, x+0 yp w16 hp gopen, v
 11:42 @tidbit : gui, font, s12, Tahoma
and what if multiple people are asking for help? now you got 2+ scripts intertwined.
Discord solves this, but it's still very highly recommended to use a pastebin for anything more than say.. 30 lines.

neither chat programs work like notepad. you can't edit the lines above (well, discord can. only of its your message though).
plus, the pastebin you linked has a button to enable real-time colab, multiple people live-editing a single doc.

edit: "And you would too seeing it from my perspective"
and you'd see it too from our perspective. 10+ years vs 2 years.
rawr. fear me.
*poke*
Is it December 21, 2012 yet?
User avatar
jeeswg
Posts: 6539
Joined: 19 Dec 2016, 01:58
Location: UK

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

22 Mar 2019, 11:57

- (With the fancy IRC within a web browser, to the user, it looks like it could be capable of doing something cleverer re. handling code.)
- (Possibly the message could give some indication of why it would be a bad idea not to use pastebin.)
- The points you've outlined are reasons why I'd recommend people to only use the forum, and not use IRC or Discord. That, and the fact that I'd like any code I write to be available to future visitors.

- It's not good to keep pushing the idea that the problem is difficult. You're making it even more likely that the problem won't be solved. In fact, you've already put me off from wanting to help.
- I would have thought that the consensus would have been: it's a tricky problem, but we've had partial success ... code tag use increased by X amount when we did Y. And possibly, I or others could suggest a few tweaks.
- I've seen people who thought they knew ABC to XYZ about a problem, be outdone by a newbie within days. So unless you're thick-skinned, which maybe you are, it's best never to say 'if I can't do it, no-one can'.
homepage | tutorials | wish list | fun threads | donate
WARNING: copy your posts/messages before hitting Submit as you may lose them due to CAPTCHA
User avatar
tidbit
Posts: 1131
Joined: 29 Sep 2013, 17:15
Location: USA

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

22 Mar 2019, 12:05

"With the fancy IRC within a web browser"
thats all fine and good if EVERYONE used the exact same client, but the majority of regulars (not one-timers) use a desktop client (of which there are many. Some going back over 20 years).
the IRC protocol has no outline on how to handle code blocks, it's a chat program, we just happen to be on a server mainly for devs, which means code gets passed around. Go to a server mostly about tv/anime/movies? they don't have or need code tags.
rawr. fear me.
*poke*
Is it December 21, 2012 yet?
User avatar
tank
Posts: 2748
Joined: 28 Sep 2013, 22:15
Facebook: charlie.simmons.7334
Google: ttnnkkrr
GitHub: ttnnkkrr
Location: Irving TX
Contact:

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

22 Mar 2019, 13:22

And then this time for me to shut this down. This is not a real problem it is only a problem to certain people. I am not repeat not going to write a solution to this problem when so many others have tried and failed. If someone once to write a custom solution do so and posted and I will consider implementing it. Other than that you're arguing over nothing since it will have to be me that implements it
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
but not in despair; Persecuted‚ but not forsaken; cast down‚ but not destroyed;
https://www.facebook.com/ahkscript.org
If you have forum suggestions please submit a pull request
Thanks Tank :thumbup:
User avatar
jeeswg
Posts: 6539
Joined: 19 Dec 2016, 01:58
Location: UK

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

22 Mar 2019, 13:58

- If most of the users are newbies, doing it via web browser, who followed the forum link, and saw a fancy IRC, they will be more surprised at basic problems, they won't have anticipated them.

- Here's how a code tags image could look:
please-use-code-tags.PNG
please-use-code-tags.PNG (22.85 KiB) Viewed 1195 times
homepage | tutorials | wish list | fun threads | donate
WARNING: copy your posts/messages before hitting Submit as you may lose them due to CAPTCHA
User avatar
Scr1pter
Posts: 1069
Joined: 06 Aug 2017, 08:21
Location: Germany

Re: Reminding new members to use code tags

22 Mar 2019, 19:17

This thread is about the forum, not about IRC.

I think the problem is that some people expect the ultimate solution which will solve the issue 100%.
I'm neither expecting nor looking for this.

My personal aim (the reason why I created this topic) is to reduce those “code tag-less threads“ created by newbies.

Let's say (for example) right now 10 newbies join the forums and all of them post without code tags.
If we/you implement one/some of the already proposed ideas (here in this thread), do you really think that all 10 newbies will post the same way?
I really, really doubt it.

Is there any idea here you actually see as being implemented easily?
As said, we/you can try it with the simplest (eg red sentence over or under the submit button) and a red code tag.
If somebody oversees it, he must be blind.
A bold question mark (right after the red sentence) will show an image as instruction

I'm on the phone now, but I can create a concept tomorrow.

Cheers!
Please use code tags when posting code!
Keyboard: Logitech G15 FE - Mice: Logitech G9 FE, G502 FE, G602 - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 Bit - AHK version: 1.1.29.00

Return to “Forum Issues”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests