Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

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zapax
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Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

04 Mar 2019, 12:05

Lexikos, if I'm not wrong the only AHK developer, was last active on November 18th 2018. Last commit on github is from November 10th 2018, nearly 5 months ago. Before that we can see a few commits each month.
Is AHK no longer developed? Is Lexikos ok? Something happend or he's just tired and not interested with this project any more?
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nnnik
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

04 Mar 2019, 12:14

lexikos has been experimenting with some ideas that really require some planning and design - they are also a lot of work.
He has been on and off for a while now and took breaks before. The current break is rather long.
I do not worry about AHK though - we have a large comunity that will make sure that AHK has a bright future ahead.

However I do worry about lexikos. So if you have the chance and read this I hope you leave a comment to show you are alright :)
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zapax
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

05 Mar 2019, 07:53

To be honest I don't believe in this 'large community'. Lexikos is/was(?) the steering wheel and the engine of this project.
Without him there's no vision, no direction, no development (no other contributors).
Community is big where the project is under constant development. Without progress community will vanish really quick (like in dead mmo games).
I'm just worried without engine and steering wheel there's only one direction a project can follow - down the hill right into the abyss.
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Scr1pter
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

05 Mar 2019, 08:55

As far as I know there are 3 AHK developers.
Lexikos + 2 others.

Also, I do believe there are a lot of talented guys here who could create future versions of AHK.

Cheers!
Please use code tags when posting code!
Keyboard: Logitech G15 FE - Mice: Logitech G9 FE, G502 FE, G602 - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 Bit - AHK version: 1.1.29.00
just me
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

05 Mar 2019, 12:08

Scr1pter wrote:
05 Mar 2019, 08:55
Also, I do believe there are a lot of talented guys here who could create future versions of AHK.
I'm not as sure as you about that.
swagfag
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

05 Mar 2019, 12:14

yeah idk and i don't mean to spread fud, but realistically if lexikos dropped the project how likely is it really for ahk_l to keep going on? theres currently helgef and nnnik making prs and, not to discredit their work, the changes they're making are tiny in the grand scheme of things. maybe this has to do with the sheer scope of the project. suppose lexikos 100% knows the ins and outs of the codebase, how familiar do u estimate urselves? how comfortable are u with suggesting and\or implementing radical changes, big features, etc.

hotkeyit is busy with his own fork. if push comes to shove, people will like have to switch over
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nnnik
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

05 Mar 2019, 12:25

I am not actively contributing anymore. Helgef makes good minor tweaks from time to time he makes larger additions.
The reason for that is that I have no idea what lexikos ants or how he sees our additions/suggestion and changes.
With a group of people discussing how the language should look like and then seperately implementing that by other people we could work better together.
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AHKStudent
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

05 Mar 2019, 12:43

He went quiet before and returned, im sure he will be back.
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jeeswg
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

05 Mar 2019, 14:27

- My plan has been to try and communicate with Helgef and nnnik, and anyone else interested in working on the source code, so that we can work more effectively together.
- I've teamed up quite nicely with Helgef on a number of things. I've found communication with nnnik (and lexikos) more difficult, but the door is always open.

- For busy people, you must make their life easy.
- E.g. I know that lexikos looked at my Wish List 2.0 one day, and added in various 'A_' variables/features (for AHK v1.1.28).
- I've also noticed that lexikos is open to code, GitHub pull requests, so if you write it, he'll consider it, e.g. SendLevel/#InputLevel, but it's right that there should be a high barrier to entry for new features.

- @zapax/just me/swagfag: C++ isn't too hard, I can implement my wish list ideas for example, the main problem is time, I'd need to be doing AutoHotkey full-time. But then again, even with lexikos's ability, it looks like AHK v2 will take 10 years.
- The big question is, what are all these advanced features you want? I was happy with AHK v1, I just wanted the syntax fixed (doable within AHK v1). (And various other relatively simple features for convenience, if people wanted them.)
- An indication of lexikos's overall wish list would be great to see.

- @swagfag: The difficulty with the source code is figuring out what certain parts do. It's bit like doing archaeology on a massive AHK script.
- A paragraph for each cpp/h file would be really helpful. I've already mapped a lot of it, but some files/functions could do with paragraph intros/more comments.
AutoHotkey C++ Powerhouse: Introduction - AutoHotkey Community
https://autohotkey.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=54394
- Btw adding functions/A_ variables is easy, however, changing the parser/adding new syntax can be horrible.
Last edited by jeeswg on 16 Mar 2019, 16:03, edited 1 time in total.
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tank
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

05 Mar 2019, 14:35

FYI let me be perfectly clear. I expect Lexikos will continue when whimsy suits him. That said, it is a part time effort for him. ANY one wanting to fork and implement their own designs are free to do so. I will even guarantee that it can be hosted here right along side. If it becomes popular enough it can become the main distro. This is how Chris handled it with Lexikos, I see no reason not to honor that precedent.
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
but not in despair; Persecuted‚ but not forsaken; cast down‚ but not destroyed;
https://www.facebook.com/ahkscript.org
If you have forum suggestions please submit a pull request
Thanks Tank :thumbup:
SOTE
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

05 Mar 2019, 15:31

swagfag wrote:
05 Mar 2019, 12:14
yeah idk and i don't mean to spread fud, but realistically if lexikos dropped the project how likely is it really for ahk_l to keep going on? theres currently helgef and nnnik making prs and, not to discredit their work, the changes they're making are tiny in the grand scheme of things. maybe this has to do with the sheer scope of the project. suppose lexikos 100% knows the ins and outs of the codebase, how familiar do u estimate urselves? how comfortable are u with suggesting and\or implementing radical changes, big features, etc.

hotkeyit is busy with his own fork. if push comes to shove, people will like have to switch over
AutoHotkey_H is well tested and highly compatible. I don't know the exact percentage, but I'm thinking 95% or greater of scripts could run without changes from AutoHotkey_L to AutoHotkey_H or AutoHotkey v2 to AutoHotkey_H v2. I've not had any trouble when running scripts between the two versions. I don't see any need for panic. And asking if AHK is dead, is really pushing it.

Arguably, the issue with AutoHotkey_L would be naming a successor, if Lexikos doesn't come back. And it's not clear if that is the situation. Lexikos could simply be taking a long break. AutoHotkey_L is quite mature, so it's not like there is an emergency update needed. And when it comes to a "direct successor" that could set off a lot of fireworks. So maybe it's for the best that whoever is the "next Lexikos", start their own fork. Which is one of the greatest advantages of open source. But, that's "if" Lexikos decides to move on, and again, that might not be the case and he just took a "vacation".
zapax
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

07 Mar 2019, 04:12

tank wrote*:
'FYI let me be perfectly clear. I expect Lexikos will continue when whimsy suits him.'

SOTE wrote:
'And asking if AHK is dead, is really pushing it.'

Why are you guys so passive-aggressive? I'm just worried. I'm worried about project and about it's only developer who I hope is OK.
No matter what, it looks like Lexikos is the only guy with vision. His absence is serious problem for this project.
There's quite big community but only one person concerned in development. We might not want to admit it but sooner or later this will be issue we'll have to address.

And I'm not pushing. Maybe asking if AHK is dead isn't tasteful but it's not even a clickbait. Simply, as you can see, my English
is garbage and I feel bad about it also because it took me nearly an hour to write this post and I was able to do so only thanks to
the translator. So I asked this way because I couldn't do it otherwise.

The only purpose of this topic is to bring attention to this situation (absence of Lexikos and development stopping) and a
suggestion that maybe we should start asking questions instead of pretending everything is in a nice way.

*For some reason I can't submit post with quotes
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nnnik
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

07 Mar 2019, 06:24

Yeah new users cant quote. This is to prevent malicous attacks from a spam bot.
We are aware of this problem, however so far I don't think lexikos absence is really a problem yet.
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jeeswg
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

07 Mar 2019, 09:29

- Has lexikos communicated with at least one admin/mod since 18 Nov 2018, even just to say 'hi'? No, I'm assuming, not one word.

- Who is second-in-command if I need to ask something important about code/the forum? tank, I'm assuming.

- lexikos has shown no interest in an effective collaboration with would-be devs, he doesn't have to. I.e. where devs check if something is worth writing, before writing it.
- Posting random GitHub pull requests and hoping for the best, however, is something both nnnik and I have refused to do.
- What could work: I say to lexikos: here's a list of things I could code in C++, any that you'd like? He would still be able to reject any of the finished code.

- The other devs could coordinate, to: check if something is worth writing, avoid multiple devs writing the same code, review each other's code. That way we get a body of code of a certain standard, that lexikos might later approve.
- I'm willing to take charge and orchestrate the efforts of other would-be devs to write AHK source code.
- DM me, with an indication of (a) your general wish list (short or long) and/or elements from mine, (b) which items you feel capable of coding in C++.
- (My aim is that devs would work on code that is desired by a sufficient number of users, and that will be quality-checked by multiple devs.)
- I also plan to extend some of the notes/tips in my various C++ threads, to facilitate code-writing.
- In general, I would suggest that anyone who is serious about the future of AutoHotkey, who has a wish list of 10+/20+ items, publish a general wish list, similar to my Wish List 2.0. Thanks.
Last edited by jeeswg on 16 Mar 2019, 22:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

07 Mar 2019, 10:04

Anyone with a serious wish list should just fork Just as Lexikos did all those years ago
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
but not in despair; Persecuted‚ but not forsaken; cast down‚ but not destroyed;
https://www.facebook.com/ahkscript.org
If you have forum suggestions please submit a pull request
Thanks Tank :thumbup:
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jeeswg
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

07 Mar 2019, 10:10

- I already forked. I already published some code.
AutoHotkey C++ Powerhouse: Introduction - AutoHotkey Community
https://autohotkey.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=54394
- A bit of yeah / no / I don't want the feature but maybe in the future / yeah but tweak this. That would have been good.
- Do you think the admins/mods could have done more to get more devs on side? At what point since 2011 did people think, hmm maybe something needs to change.
- That code that I did took months of on/off work. So a bit of feedback, or the lack of it, might have some bearing on whether I write more code for AHK_L. I could make an official fork, but (a) it could confuse newbies as to what's official/what's not, (b) it's worth it to try and be collaborative first.
Last edited by jeeswg on 07 Mar 2019, 10:14, edited 1 time in total.
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nnnik
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

07 Mar 2019, 10:13

Generally I have been playing with the idea of an AutoHotkey consortium for a while.
The AutoHotkey consortium would have the goal to define the Syntax of the AutoHotkey language and ensuring an adequate implementation is made.
I imagine a structure in which the decision-making is split into several steps:
A leader or envisioner would weigh and define the ideals of the language - once this is set it will stay like this for a long time (probably 10+ years).

Then a smaller top group of the consortium would define which areas of functionality the language should cover.
The leader needs to check if the areas of coverage fit the ideals of the language set by himself.

Another larger and more open group of the consortium will take care of defining a specific syntax for the areas that should be covered.
The top group should look out that the syntax suggestion gives the user the functionality needed to cover the area defined by them and that it doesn't collide with other syntax and combines good with other functionality.
Both the top group and the leader shuld look out that the syntax that has been defined actually fits the established ideals.

Lastly anyone should be welcome to make the implementation of the code for the specified syntax.
Once again the consortium then checks if it fits the ideals and if it actually covers the functionality lastly code needs to be reviewed and tested.

It would split the implementation from the actual definition of the syntax.
It would split the definition of the syntax from the definition of which functionlity we want to offer.
And it would split the areas of functionality we offer from the actual ideals of the language.

I hope that people establish a way of working together using this structure and that everyone can see, influence and participate the creation and development of this language.
However establishing it would take quite a bit of time. I still have quite a few open points ranging from "which tools would be useful?" to "how would one make sure that the structure is easily open for positive influence but keeps away destructive behavior?".

I only mentioned this a few times, but haven't really fully presented this to anybody since it isn't quite finished yet - maybe there'll never be the good point to share this with everyone.
I shared this because I think it's a bad idea to jump the gun and make your AHK fork - with your wishlist implemented - right now when lexikos has only been away for a little while and we don't even know if he will come back.
This plan would be useful even if lexikos were to return - at least I believe that.

Do you think this plan is useful?
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SOTE
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

07 Mar 2019, 11:17

Since tank and joedf are part of the AutoHotkey Foundation, seems like they should decide or have the last word.

As for the developers, if they could work as a team as oppose to fight or try to crush others, that would be good.
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jeeswg
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

07 Mar 2019, 11:25

- @tank: Rather than fork AHK, my more pragmatic plan was to make available a really good function library (nearly finished), and to push for the following:

shippable AHK v1 = 'shippable AHK v2'
✓ A_Args object [deprecate legacy command-line parameter variables (%0% %1% %2% etc)]
✓ force-local mode
✓ #Include (support all built-in variables)
✓ ObjCount function
✓ backport AHK v2 functions [deprecate legacy commands]
✓ backport AHK v2 GUI objects [deprecate legacy GUI commands]
✓ documentation [deprecate legacy functionality, complete the index]
_ Loop (expression) [deprecate legacy Loop, essential for two-way compatibility e.g. Loop (var)]
_ LoopFiles/LoopParse/LoopRead/LoopReg [deprecate legacy Loop, essential for two-way compatibility e.g. LoopParse var, "`n", "`r"]
_ #If WinActive() (optimised) [deprecate legacy #IfWinXXX, essential for two-way compatibility]
_ contains/in/is operators [deprecate legacy contains/in/is e.g. if (var is type)]
_ #Include (additional variables) [A_AhkDir/A_AhkName/A_AhkNameNoExt, A_ScriptNameNoExt, A_AhkVersionMain/A_OSVersionMain or other names e.g. 1.1/6.1, e.g. #Include *i %A_AhkDir%\MyScript %A_AhkVersionMain%.ahk]

- Note: I've almost finished backporting the AHK v2 GUI objects, e.g. it worked on the 9 example scripts. Remaining concerns: menu examples, events (very fiddly), .Value/.Text (fiddly).
- All I've ever really wanted was to fix AutoHotkey's syntax problems, to reduce confusion for newbies and to attract devs, and get a StrRept function built-in.

==================================================

- @nnnik: I don't disagree or agree. I do like that you think big though.

- You suggested that we have one carefully curated list of good scripts.
- But who would have the time/skill to curate it?
- Whereas I thought it would be better that each person posted their own personal list as a post.
- Smaller lists are easier to read, personal lists are more interesting to read.

- Similarly, I would rather that say 5 people wrote a proposal for the ideal AHK syntax, and I could be influenced by all of the ideas.
- Again, those lists would be more interesting than whatever a committee could decide. And I'd have more ideas to consider.
- Syntax lists were touched on here:
your personal AutoHotkey style guide - AutoHotkey Community
https://autohotkey.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=47140
v2 docs contribution questions - AutoHotkey Community
https://autohotkey.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=49735&p=221055#p221055
- (We do need some guidance, however, for the AHK documentation and source code.)

- One concern is that you'd be frustrated trying to persuade people that we need to 'clean' the AHK syntax, e.g. you'd want to replace the A_LoopFileXXX variables with a class. These ideas have some merit, but at the same time many people would disagree with you or say 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.
- I feel your aim is to change AHK so much, it would hardly be AHK any more, and it would be better to start with a language closer to your ideal, and fix that.
- Or, you should fork AHK, and/or you should do a full wish list of your ideal AHK, to see if it could gain traction, before proposing a consortium. I do find your ideas for 'cleaning' AutoHotkey quite interesting and worth considering, but I generally find AutoHotkey sufficient for my needs.
- Your language is quite hopeful, but I'd worry you'd just get annoyed when people disagreed with you, or didn't dislike the proposals, but felt them low priority.

[EDIT:] Swapped the order of the 2 responses.
Last edited by jeeswg on 08 Mar 2019, 04:11, edited 1 time in total.
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nnnik
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

07 Mar 2019, 12:01

Many people have told you that you have serious problems with the AutoHotkey basics.
Yet you want to jump the gun now and become something like the new main developer?
I'm sorry but I do not see this happening.
Also I never planned on becoming the new leader of this structure. I think we should persuade someone else to take up this part.
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