Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

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nnnik
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

09 Mar 2019, 17:10

I dont think anybody wants to prevent forks.
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gregster
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

09 Mar 2019, 17:32

Wonderful. So we agree.
kyuuuri
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

09 Mar 2019, 22:48

I think we all want people to help with ahk's development instead of "ignoring" ahk and doing their own version, that's why I gave my example of what you can do if you need/want to change/add/fix something.
If you are good enough to write the code yourself, then you can make a pull request on ahk.
SOTE
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

10 Mar 2019, 03:17

gregster wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 12:31
kyuuuri, I appreciate your thoughts and your motivation to help. But we might have our different views what might be best for AHK. I still don't see the problem of forks - and I mentioned hosting relevant forks. Of course, we don't need every test or personal version that doesn't get any traction - but these problems will sort out itself. If there is no interest in a fork and it doesn't add extra value, it won't get much visibility. In the last ten years I have seen not one new fork here on the forum (or, I missed them because nobody cared) and I don't expect any to flood the forum now. Even if there would be one or two, discussions about these wouldn't likely happen in the 'Ask for Help' forum where new users start and no one would recommend or support these versions, if they don't add extra value or haven't proven some reliability or consistency.

But I think that for a complex project like this, experience is important (especially if we think about developping new talents for the future) and it would be better for people that never handled a software project of this size, to practice to maintain a version for some time - and for this the possibility of feedback from other users is good. Of course, this could strictly happen on github - but then again, most versions won't get much attention anyway.

If Lexikos or HotKeyit put out a new version, people know what they can expect (their versions are 10 years or older). If you or me would make a fork, people wouldn't care much unless we would do something really interesting, reliable and useful - and at least create the impression that we would support it for some time. If that would really happen, it is always good to have a record of it (as documented information, if someone wants to revisit an issue in five years or plans a specialised version that is only interesting for a few people), even if it has not a remote chance of ending up in the main version.
And we have seen with HotKeyit's and Lexikos' versions that cannibalisation is not necessarily an issue. Again, I would be surprised if we see more than one fork in the next years that will get any traction - and I wouldn't even bet that we see one (especially, when Lexikos returns). But forks as practice and getting experience - this I would like to see instead of more theorizing.
I believe the issue about new forks with AutoHotkey, center around using Visual Studio, C++, and the Windows OS. With AutoHotkey_L and AutoHotkey_H (to include v1 and v2 versions) for the Windows OS, it's hard for me to see a new fork getting any traction. The new fork would need to provide some different level of functionality, from what already exist. If not, it might arguably be better to contribute to AutoHotkey_L and AutoHotkey_H to make them better, since they are the main established branches.

If a new fork was AutoHotkey on Linux or Android, written in C#, then that's something comparatively radical and different. But this appears to take a developer with very different thinking and knowledge of multiple programming languages. Such a fork, could create a new segment of users and recruit other developers focused on that area.

However, If the new fork is another version of AutoHotkey on the Windows OS, I'm wondering what could it do, that could not be done already or added to the existing forks of AutoHotkey_L and AutoHotkey_H. In fact, you probably could copy the C++ code from the new fork and put it into the already existing forks to give it the same features.

Why I also mention that Visual Studio and C++ are issues, is because this seems to cause Windows OS centric development. If AutoHotkey was compiled with GCC, this looks to open up development for Linux and other OSes. And various other programming languages lend themselves to cross-platform development and cross-compiling, to include tools and IDEs for them. Like Object Pascal, Java, Python (yuck), and JavaScript (though arguably way too browser, web centric, and mixed with CSS and HTML).

C# has been making various steps in that direction (more cross-platform and cross-compiling "friendly"), though arguably more because of Xamarin went there first (and then got bought), as Microsoft seemed to be dragging their feet and didn't want Linux or Android to get more attention. It's not to say that C++ can't be used for other OSes, but it doesn't seem to be encouraging such. There also seems to be the thinking that the AutoHotkey language must be wedded to the C++ Interpreter for Windows as oppose to an Interpreter in another programming language, an Interpreter for a different OS, or one created with something other than Visual Studio.

Don't get me wrong, the Windows OS is a wide space to exist on (and maybe ReactOS and Windows Mobile will one day make it wider), but any new fork will be competing with very mature and well established AutoHotkey_L and AutoHotkey_H that are occupying the same space, on the same OS.
Last edited by SOTE on 10 Mar 2019, 06:09, edited 1 time in total.
gregster
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

10 Mar 2019, 03:31

SOTE wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 03:17
[...] but any new fork will be competing with very mature and well established AutoHotkey_L and AutoHotkey_H that are occupying the same space.
Sure, that is exactly what I was saying to the ones being afraid of forks - any new fork would need to be really useful to get traction. But then again, we have seen it before...
Nevertheless, a fork as a tool to get experience in managing and maintaining a project like this would not be touched by this assessment in any way. (People don't like to practice, though. So this is more a weak hope than an expectation about the future.)
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jeeswg
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

10 Mar 2019, 10:18

- @nnnik: This is an important moment, a fork in the road (no pun intended).
- The strongest form of collaboration would be regular communication.
- The weakest form of collaboration would be that I had some of idea of your plans, to avoid the unnecessary duplication of effort.
- (I collected my plans in Wish List 2.0.)
- I know that you could easily give some indications as to your plans/wishes for AutoHotkey.
- I know that you enjoy meta-conversations and giving your opinions.
- Do you want devs to collaborate or not?
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nnnik
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

10 Mar 2019, 11:27

I sure want them to communicate once the structures are in place - I mean hy wouldn't I?
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jeeswg
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

10 Mar 2019, 11:56

Close enough. :thumbup:
Btw the pun was intended. ;)
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guest3456
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

10 Mar 2019, 12:18

HotKeyIt and AHK_H are the natural next in line

SOTE
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

11 Mar 2019, 06:43

guest3456 wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 12:18
HotKeyIt and AHK_H are the natural next in line
:thumbup: +1
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jeeswg
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

16 Mar 2019, 17:18

zapax wrote: To be honest I don't believe in this 'large community'. Lexikos is/was(?) the steering wheel and the engine of this project.
Without him there's no vision, no direction, no development (no other contributors).
Community is big where the project is under constant development. Without progress community will vanish really quick (like in dead mmo games).
I'm just worried without engine and steering wheel there's only one direction a project can follow - down the hill right into the abyss.
- I'm just going back to this 3rd post, which I thought was brilliant/hilarious and could sum up so many companies/institutions.

- Chris Mallett, Lexikos, HotKeyIt, and Jonathan Bennett (of AutoIt), have shown that multiple people can have vision and direction and can develop.
- There were other forks also, including AHK64 and AHK_U:
http://maul-esel.github.io/ahkbook/en/images/versions.png
- And other users have contributed major pull requests to AutoHotkey.

- Although other users have great vision, lexikos has some really special and unique ideas, and we would really benefit from a document that was a blue-sky thinking consideration of 'AutoHotkey v3/v4' ideas.
- If we can get these ideas on paper, that would really secure a great future for AutoHotkey, and the ideas could eventually be implemented by current/future devs.

- If you are serious about your project having a long-term future, the code needs to be well-commented, and you should write 'fireside chat' paragraphs/summaries that introduce each source code file, and the project as a whole.
- People can have the C++ skills, but do they have the time/motivation/domain-specific knowledge/lateral-thinking skills to unravel your codebase.
- I've been working towards this goal, here:
AutoHotkey C++ Powerhouse: Introduction - AutoHotkey Community
https://autohotkey.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=54394
- I've also been working on a C++ tutorial, to bring in good devs who don't happen to know C++ yet. For now there is:
C++ Tutorial - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5HgK1bTLOg
- But others, who have spent longer working on the source code, will have key crucial insights, that I don't currently have.

- In terms of vision, also, there is the question of AutoHotkey growing in terms of recognition and reputation. It deserves to be better known than it is, and could easily grow to be a top 30/20 language. Something that could bring in new devs and ideas ... I could say more about this.

- I always hoped for a document/video similar to this:
Pogo's Tips - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSlBiBu6-fs
- It's about music, but there's a lot that's relevant to programming.
- Thanks.
Last edited by jeeswg on 16 Mar 2019, 22:40, edited 8 times in total.
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kczx3
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

16 Mar 2019, 17:46

Thanks for sharing that graphic. Neat to see the timeline
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tank
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

16 Mar 2019, 22:40

Every time we have an is ahk dead conversation :headwall: because irrational fear :trollface: the same thing happens. Then when whimsy strikes him you all become silent. Have any of you tried having this conversation with the man himself? :beer: ..... good lord
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
but not in despair; Persecuted‚ but not forsaken; cast down‚ but not destroyed;
https://www.facebook.com/ahkscript.org
If you have forum suggestions please submit a pull request
Thanks Tank :thumbup:
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jeeswg
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

16 Mar 2019, 22:59

- @tank: I'm not clear who or what you're referring to, if you wouldn't mind expanding.
- For me, I stated my wish list ideas, and asked how many devs there were, almost immediately when I joined the forum.
- Initially I blamed other people for not contributing, but now I'm a would-be dev, I see how important a mote of coordination/communication/collaboration is.
- I was going to discuss the dev coordination situation after releasing some scripts (which I'm yet to release).
- But I'll tell you what we do need ... a C++ forum, but I think joedf said he would have set one up, but there was some problem doing it. :beer:

- Btw we should definitely have a more solid coterie of devs available.
- Think of AHK right now as half-dead.
- It's extremely common for software projects to die early, and we need to be taking proactive measures now to stop that from happening. Develop the devs. Develop the developers.
- AutoHotkey v2 will help to fix the recognition/reputation issues, and attract AHK/C++ devs. But so too would 'shippable AHK v1', which is possible somewhat sooner.
Is AHK dead? (not developed any more) - AutoHotkey Community
https://autohotkey.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=62505&p=266650#p266650
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SOTE
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

17 Mar 2019, 05:05

zapax wrote:
04 Mar 2019, 12:05
Lexikos, if I'm not wrong the only AHK developer, was last active on November 18th 2018. Last commit on github is from November 10th 2018, nearly 5 months ago.
Lexikos has returned. So are you going to change the title of this thread, "Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)"? Are you not pleased?

Not to mention, that HotKeyit (a developer) and AutoHotkey_H were present on this website all the while. In addition to other C++ developers who had volunteered to continue development, if Lexikos hadn't returned. And let us not forget the other AutoHotkey Foundation LLC members, tank and joedf were also active on this website all the while too.
zapax
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

18 Mar 2019, 08:31

I'm glad he's ok.

"So are you going to change the title of this thread?"
Why would I do that? So that any post in this thread have no sense?

"Are you not pleased?"
What's your problem? Is it fun to you to attack random people in Internet? Do you have some issues you can't help?

"Not to mention, that HotKeyit (a developer) and AutoHotkey_H were present on this website all the while"
This thread was all about AutoHotkey_L and Lexikos condition. I'm sorry to hear you didn't understand that.

"In addition to other C++ developers who had volunteered to continue development, if Lexikos hadn't returned."
They volunteered because of THIS VERY topic. And it shown that there's no consensus, no vision and there are internal divisions and antipathy .

"And let us not forget the other AutoHotkey Foundation LLC members, tank and joedf were also active on this website all the while too."
Once again, this thread was all about AutoHotkey_L and Lexikos condition, not condition of this forum.
Lexikos is THE ONLY contributor to AHK source code and therefore is the only person who matter FOR THIS TOPIC.

SOTE, you're so toxic person, what you showed clearly in this thread, that I'm so happy I have no more reasons to be on this board any more.
I hope I won't meet or deal with you or someone like you in the future.
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nnnik
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

18 Mar 2019, 12:49

Lexikos is THE ONLY contributor to AHK source code and therefore is the only person who matter FOR THIS TOPIC.
lexikos is the person that decides the entire code (either by modifying itself or accepting pull requests).
That doesn't mean that he is the only contributer code wise. Many people contributed and will contribute code to the AHK source.
Not many of these people responded here - yet their voice has the most weight.

I think this discussion would have been necessary sooner or later. Now might have been too early though - at least in my opinion.
However stating a question that is essentially just the statement that "AHK is already dead" is going the wrong way about it.
This rubs people the wrong way - especially if you then say there is no way that this community can continue the project and refute any point against this.

Of course the established social structure is that lexikos is the main leader of AHK.
If he leaves all hell will break loose because the structure needs to shift to adapt the new circumstances.
We need to counter this completely natural human behaviour, because I don't believe that it will lead to an AHK thats good for the comunity.
We can counter this behaviour by creating organisational structures that we abide and that are flexible as to who fulfills which role.

I have suggested my suggestion with the consortium to a few people and got mostly positive feedback.
The main reason being that a language simply cannot be maintained and developed by a single person - it's too much work.
The idea that you are able to participate and work together also resonated with a few people.
However as usual noone wants to do the work of setting this all up - including myself.

Regardless of that I think we need some form of structure to this project.
This topic and lexikos recent absence have shown it once again.

@zapax I'm sorry that your first experience in this community was of this kind and it would be a shame if you leave after this - though I can understand it.
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zapax
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

18 Mar 2019, 13:39

"I'm sorry that your first experience in this community was of this kind and it would be a shame if you leave after this - though I can understand it."
@nnnik: It's not about bad community but one "bad apple". But as I said "I have no more reasons to be on this board any more" which is true and shouldn't be consider as a loss.
I use AHK for years and I'll surely continue to use it but because I'm shy and I lack language and coding skills I can't add any value to this community.
Even when I have some problems many people asked same questions before. :)
I don't have any development ideas either. I find AHK syntax rather confusing and ... inconsistent? though I'm noob so I may be wrong.
So it will probably be better for the community if I leave. It's really not a loss. You won't miss me for sure. :D
Anyway thanks for kind words.
SOTE
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

18 Mar 2019, 14:02

zapax wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 08:31
I'm glad he's ok.

"So are you going to change the title of this thread?"
Why would I do that? So that any post in this thread have no sense?

"Are you not pleased?"
What's your problem? Is it fun to you to attack random people in Internet? Do you have some issues you can't help?

"Not to mention, that HotKeyit (a developer) and AutoHotkey_H were present on this website all the while"
This thread was all about AutoHotkey_L and Lexikos condition. I'm sorry to hear you didn't understand that.

"In addition to other C++ developers who had volunteered to continue development, if Lexikos hadn't returned."
They volunteered because of THIS VERY topic. And it shown that there's no consensus, no vision and there are internal divisions and antipathy .

"And let us not forget the other AutoHotkey Foundation LLC members, tank and joedf were also active on this website all the while too."
Once again, this thread was all about AutoHotkey_L and Lexikos condition, not condition of this forum.

SOTE, you're so toxic person, what you showed clearly in this thread, that I'm so happy I have no more reasons to be on this board any more.
I hope I won't meet or deal with you or someone like you in the future.
The title of your thread, "Is AHK dead?", is quite provocative. People can see that, even if you don't want to acknowledge the truth. The suggestion to change the title, is giving the opportunity to be less provocative and less inflammatory.

It's "toxic" to ask if you are pleased with Lexikos's return or not? If you really are glad to see him return, then you shouldn't be upset about someone asking the question.
Lexikos is THE ONLY contributor to AHK source code and therefore is the only person who matter FOR THIS TOPIC.
Lexikos is indeed very important to the AHK community for his contributions. But, it has been explained in a number of parts on this thread, that he's not the only contributor. It's quite toxic and arguably disrespectful to say other contributors to AutoHotkey don't matter. And there were and are other forks of AutoHotkey, in which AutoHotkey_H is one.

If you find the validity of statements made by me too much to handle, please go to the "User Control Panel", and then to the "friends & foe" tab. There you can add me as a foe, and thus allowing you to ignore my posts. This way, if you truly like AutoHotkey and didn't create this thread for nefarious purposes or to troll it's members, then you can enjoy the AutoHotkey boards. Perhaps others look forward to your posts on other topics, besides if "Is AHK dead?"

Long Live AutoHotkey
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Tigerlily
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Re: Is AHK dead? (not developed any more)

27 Mar 2019, 20:02

.
Last edited by Tigerlily on 28 Mar 2019, 18:54, edited 1 time in total.
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