opinions on Stack Overflow

[derz00]

hmm. I am really going to like it, yes.. :)

[jeeswg]

Omg this thread reached page 3.
@derz00 (last comment): Unsure what you mean.
@joedf: You're right. You sure know your Stack Userflow from your Super Over.
@derz00 (comment before that): Super User = paddling pool, Stack Overflow = cesspool.

Btw I don't know if I mentioned it before, but there are so many IT forums on Stack Exchange, it's hard to know where to post.

Spoiler

All Sites - Stack Exchange
https://stackexchange.com/sites?view=list#traffic

Stack Overflow
Super User
(Ask Ubuntu)
Server Fault
(Unix & Linux)
(Ask Different)
(Arqade)
(Android Enthusiasts)
(Cross Validated)
Database Administrators
(Electrical Engineering)
(Graphic Design)
Software Engineering
Web Applications
Information Security
Code Review
(The Workplace)
(Game Development)
User Experience
Network Engineering
Webmasters
Software Quality Assurance & Testing
Computer Science
Data Science
Cryptography
Programming Puzzles & Code Golf
(Video Production)
Software Recommendations
Reverse Engineering
(Windows Phone)
(Sound Design)
Robotics
Computational Science
Theoretical Computer Science
Open Data
Internet of Things
DevOps
Computer Graphics
Retrocomputing
Artificial Intelligence
Hardware Recommendations
Open Source
Computer Science Educators
(Bioinformatics)

It's another critical failing by the people at Stack Exchange. Further to this, it's better to ask a history of mathematics question at the 'Mathematics' forum than it is at the 'History of Science and Mathematics' forum. Why? Because more people are there to answer. Also, if you word the question correctly, no-one would even think it was in the wrong place.

At some point I'll collect my best tips for dealing with Stack Overflow etcetera.

[derz00]

I can give no opinion about Stack Overflow because I have never found reason to ask a question there. I know a very talented programmer who, when stuck "lives in Stack Overflow" for a while. I found his account on the forum, and he only ever asked 1 or 2 questions (and answered many more). Other than that, I am not qualified to speak.

By my last comment (hastily composed) I meant that I am impressed by SuperUser will find it helpful. Especially because its active, and it's general, not like tenforums.com, answers.microsoft.com, etc. And many expert contributers.

[joedf]

SuperUser is great and everyone is friendly usually, well compared to SO anyway haha
Yeah so many forums/sites. If your posts doesn't belong on SuperUser They will gently move it or answer it anyways. where as on SO, they down vote you or close/delete the question :/
I've seen it happen so many times to new users...

[jeeswg]

nnnik, in this thread, and guest3456, elsewhere, mentioned a forum/FAQ distinction. I couldn't find any information about such a distinction anywhere, other than this link, which suggests that an FAQ is still a forum, but where the questions face tougher hurdles.

FAQs vs. Forums. What's the difference between a FAQ and a Forum?
http://www.jguru.com/faq/view.jsp?EID=389828

[jeeswg]

Omg Stack Overflow have added a yellow rubber duck, this is worse than Clippy. The duck looks friendly and sinister at the same time, how Stack Overflow.

Quack Overflow is listening…

With the magic of the internet,
you can just explain your problem anyway!
Speak naturally.

Omg 'Quack Overflow' is actually quite funny, but 'is listening' is a bit alarming. Friendly and sinister again!

[derz00]

https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/365402/8771195

Never saw a virtual rubber ducky before! I'll have to try it next time I have a problem...

[jeeswg]

Ask the duck!

You’ll need to explain your problem.
Do you have a microphone?

Yes No

[if you click yes]
Quack Overflow is listening…

Explain your problem out loud. Speak naturally.

[if you click no]
Quack Overflow is listening…

With the magic of the internet,
you can just explain your problem anyway!
Speak naturally.

Ah yes, I noticed this. You get different response texts, but both say that 'the duck' is listening. A user wants clarification and gets 8 downvotes. The better the meta question, the more reasonable or normal it is, the more reflective it is of general opinion, the more likely it is to get heavily downvoted. Thanks for sharing.

One thing I've never accused Stack Overflow of, is of having bugs. You would think with so many programmers there, and so many useful curated answers, they would have avoided the problem. But then again, we all make mistakes, especially Stack Overflow.

I mainly check Stack Overflow to see if a certain programmer has been active, recent activity suggests that they've been working on a program that I use.

[guest3456]

One thing I've never accused Stack Overflow of, is of having bugs. You would think with so many programmers there, and so many useful curated answers, they would have avoided the problem. But then again, we all make mistakes, especially Stack Overflow.

its clearly intentional, as an april fool's day joke

[jeeswg]

Awh, poor Guestie, did you think I didn't know?
[EDIT:] Curiously, because of time zones I suppose, based on comments I saw, I think it might have started on 31 Mar, and it is still here on 2 Apr.

[guest3456]

edited

[jeeswg]

edited

[guest3456]

edited

[jeeswg]

AFAICS, plenty of normal people do use SO and do have unpleasant experiences. See this thread for an example. I simply picked the most recent post. It seems pretty accurate to me.

The last question I posted to Stack Overflow got through in the end, and has no downvotes, but it's easier to set up a bank account.

Why StackOverflow sucks | The Programming Works
https://sergworks.wordpress.com/2012/09 ... low-sucks/

lol I looked up “Stack Overflow sucks”, because It wastes a LOT of my time (professional developer). Here’s the formula:

1. Ask question.
2. Four immediate comments questioning your question, waxing philosophical. argument breaks out in comments.
3. Convoluted answers with wildly ranging, overly complex code.
4. Question is edited to the point where several answers and comments no longer match original question.
5. Said answers and comments are down-voted zealously.
6. OP posts that they figured it out, then runs away from the stupidity, and gets down-voted for not answering his own question, even though it’s been changed.
7. Closed as off topic.

I’m just going to block SO from my networks, and figure out how to exclude it from my search results. I’m legitimately amazed at some of these mods I see who chill there ALL DAY LONG with track records of just closing EVERYTHING. and btw I’ve read the meta, read the FAQ, read the rules (because I thought hey, maybe I’m doing something wrong, or we all are). I downvote the meta and the FAQ for being unclear, ambiguous, vague, incomplete, overly broad, or rhetorical and cannot be reasonably understood in its current form.

[derz00]

Here's a recent interesting blog post. It contains more interesting links on the same subject.

Stack Overflow isn't very Welcoming

[swagfag]

EVP of Culture and Experience at Stack Overflow

I mean.....

[nnnik]

Stack Overflow isn't very welcoming is an understatement.
It feels like a place where they burn newbies at the stake.

[jeeswg]

- @derz00: FINALLY. Many thanks for drawing this article to my attention. Curiously, the day you posted I was thinking of mentioning on this forum my intention to work on a basic forum, just for fun, but possibly as a test forum for one to be used for work and as a potential prelude to my own Stack Exchange alternative.
- @swagfag: Indeed.
- @nnnik: I know what you mean. For my Halloween costume last year I went as Stack Overflow. The AutoHotkey forum feels a bit like a second home. The Stack Overflow forum feels a bit like a demilitarised zone.

ARTICLE REVIEW
- The article is well-written and makes some good points, however, one concern with this article is that it blurs the distinction between unwelcoming and offensive behaviour, therefore treating neither issue seriously.
Stack Overflow Isn't Very Welcoming. It's Time for That to Change. - Stack Overflow Blog
https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/04/26/s ... to-change/

Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.

- (As an aside, I found the use of terms like 'marginalized groups', 'Zuckerbots' and 'Drinking the Kool-Aid' (an indirect reference, 'a glass pitcher'), most unfortunate/demoralising/problematic for an 'uplifting' article such as this that aims to be touchy-feely about social interactions and inclusivity.)
- It turns out that there have already been various (failed) initiatives aimed at improving the culture (rudeness/offensiveness), this is useful to know. Unfortunately there is no reason to believe that they are going to succeed this time.
- Worse still, they have fundamentally misidentified not only the solutions, but the problems.
- The fundamental problem that people complain about is the 'robot' element (the non-human element, the systems: reputation points system, question review system, permissions/ban system etc) and not the human element (the random acts of unkindness, the person-to-person hostility).
- Btw people expect a bit of hostility on the Internet, Stack Overflow isn't to blame for that. However, when it's a user with 10,000+ reputation points, and users don't want to challenge them because they're afraid of mass retaliatory downvoting, that's when it's a problem.

REAL SOLUTIONS
- An option to flag behaviour that is simply 'unfriendly'. If a user gets hundreds of these then there is a consequence: ranging from a link to a 'be nice' video to a public tribunal where they can be challenged by other users.
- A user's reputation is only hit after 5+ downvotes, whereas 1-4 downvotes slows down their reputation growth, e.g. 4 downvotes: you need 20 more reputation points before your reputation can increase, e.g. 5 downvotes: the same plus your reputation is reduced by 5 points. The worst 'social evil' of Stack Overflow is the edginess about losing reputation, to use hyperbole to underline the problem: this is the main source of poison on the world's most poisonous website.
- A user can only receive say 100 points from upvotes for a single thread, otherwise, people can acquire an inflated reputation. This is a very serious problem with the website, reputation points *must* constitute some sort of reliable indicator of reputation. People must not be able to game the system.
- A *useful* and full/extensive list of rules and *tips* for posting questions. Also the 'unwritten rules' should be considered, how would the typical reviewer/power user perceive the question.
- A *useful* 'question-is-answered' indicator, e.g. a question is marked one colour if 5 power users have determined it answered, otherwise another colour if the OP considers it answered. (The power user indicator is more useful than the OP indicator.) At the moment there is no useful indicator as to whether a question is answered or not, in general I ignore the indicator, the OP tagged the wrong answer, a semi-complete answer (the best answer available at the time), or no answer. Potentially users could vote an answer as either useful or as a complete answer to the question.
- Perhaps: more generosity with question lifespans, inactive threads deleted less quickly, some questions may be valid but esoteric. Some questions are deleted after a month, sometimes it takes me 3 months to answer a question because I'm busy.
- Perhaps: more generosity with question bans: the ability to ask a question every 3 months, versus 6 months only for more severe cases. A flaw with the system is that some programming languages are less well-known so questions receive virtually no upvotes. A system that eventually forgives historic 'bad' questions could be worth considering. Also, questions are often downvoted not because they break the rules, but because of the culture of the forum, therefore it makes sense to be more forgiving of earlier questions when the user doesn't yet know the 'unwritten rules'.
- The review process is infuriating and can last a week, but I can understand that this isn't something that is necessarily easy to fix. Perhaps though, some measures that decrease unnecessary pressure/unease can be found. Perhaps a greyed out stage where the question is under review, but people can still post comments (I can't remember exactly how it works, and I don't want to be reacquainted with it either), and/or more clarity about how long the review process will last/what the deadlines are.
- Does the EVP actually use Stack Overflow? I see no questions or answers. Anyone seeking to reform Stack Overflow should experience how infuriating, slow and nauseating/pressure-laden it is to use.
User Jaydles - Stack Exchange
https://stackexchange.com/users/140824/ ... b=accounts
- Anyway, they can listen to what I said, or waste another 5 years, and let the website continue to rot, and pat themselves on the backs for more failed initiatives ('at least we did *something*, ineffective yes, but we tried').
- I'll leave three slightly hyperbolic points to underline the Stack Overflow effect, and how it could be changed.
- Stack Overflow is unique in that it has put off tens of thousands of people from becoming programmers.
- Stack Overflow is severely undermining the reputation of the IT industry and all the people that work within it.
- Stack Overflow has wasted more of my time than the next ten websites combined.

'A bit of that good old Stack Overflow hospitality.'
'Stack Overflow kindled my love for programming and for the wider programming community.'

[Frosti]

Stack Overflow is like a Roman Arena. You are the new gladiator. You have no idea of the rules and certainly not from the tricks. And then comes a veteran gladiator and his servant entourage, just killing you without warning. You are uninteresting because you simply did not understand the game. And while you are still dying they still say to you, because you still have not understood, "Do not take it personally!". Do not take it personally! You are not worthy of her fame. The Emperor doesn't care, he wants great games! He wants to see the most cunning and terrible human beast in his arena, and maybe he wants to hire her later in his company and gild her. He thinks if he gilds the beast he can control it. He only forgot or never knew one thing. There are no new stories, only new people!

And the moral of the story is?

1. You do not even go to a forensic psychiatric clinic and ask the inmates to solve your problems and that too without protection.
2. And if you're a monster, you're definitely not in this place to help others with their problems.

In this place you will find those who only know themselves. The old game of power and money - as in a Roman arena - exciting for the audience.

Have nice days with nice people here on this forum!

[Frosti]

I thought my answer and I remember a good book I read some years before. It contains instructions on how to behave in unknown hostile territory and how to win despite this disadvantage. It also tells you when it's time to pull back.
It is the book of Shun-Tzu (孫武 Sūn Wŭ) written 2500 years ago and world famous under the name: "The Art of War". It's a small book, with lots of informations, worth reading it several times.