Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Discuss the future of the AutoHotkey language
swq
Posts: 20
Joined: 07 Jul 2022, 12:12

Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by swq » 08 Jul 2022, 14:30

Since AHK v2 is being in development for more than 8 years now and it's still not considered stable I'm wondering if it ever will. I know it relatively recently became beta but it took nearly 8 years to go out of alpha so I'm really concern if going stable won't take another 10 years. It's even more disturbing if we will consider that this project have several 4 to 6 month periods without any development.

My second question is if AHK v2 eventually become stable will it be the default AHK version right away? Will it be the end of support for AHK v1?

Before someone gets offended I want to clearly state that this question isn't emotional in any sense. It's just a factual question about AHK v2 development and it requires fact-based answers. I'm not intended to suggest that AHK v2 development is to slow. I'm just want to have a clear view of the situation and project future.

gregster
Posts: 8921
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 06:48

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by gregster » 08 Jul 2022, 14:37

v2.beta is not considered stable? That's news to me. It seems to run stably, and concerning the language architecture and syntax, only minor future changes are expected (which will try to keep backwards-compatibility). At least, that's how I understand it.

For v1, afaik, you can already only expect minor updates or bugfixes, but some day in the not-so-distant future this will surely stop.
At least as much as official updates are concerned. Since it's open source, anyone can fork it of course.
Afaics, forum support for v1 will probably go on as long as there are questions and people willing to answer them (as you might know, all helpers, including forum staff and developer, are volunteers).
But at some point, the v2 forum will be the more active one, I expect.

swq
Posts: 20
Joined: 07 Jul 2022, 12:12

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by swq » 08 Jul 2022, 15:12

gregster wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 14:37
v2.beta is not considered stable? That's news to me.
Well it has beta in it's very name! :lol: But I got your point. Maybe calling it not final instead of not stable would be more accurate but that's how program version scheme looks like. First there are alphas, then betas, later RCs and stable at the end. Furthermore typically beta means that there may be some compatibility breaking changes in the future.

guest3456
Posts: 3454
Joined: 09 Oct 2013, 10:31

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by guest3456 » 08 Jul 2022, 20:14

given the fact that v2 has taken as long as it has, i expect even when the final v2 release version is out, that v1 will remain the dominant version for many years


swq
Posts: 20
Joined: 07 Jul 2022, 12:12

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by swq » 09 Jul 2022, 13:57

@guest3456 I'm also afraid of that. Just look at how painfully was the transition from Python 2 to Python 3. It took so many years and there are still programs and libraries that didn't transition to newer version. What's worse I think syntax difference (not to mention radical change in language philosophy) in AHK v2 is much much bigger than it was in Python.

User avatar
tank
Posts: 3122
Joined: 28 Sep 2013, 22:15
Location: CarrolltonTX
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by tank » 12 Jul 2022, 14:08

the forum and downloadability of version 1.x isnt going anywhere. At some point if V2 ever becomes dominant we may change the order and obvious purpose of ask for help and scripts and functions but there is no forseeable reason to expect removal or reduction of version 1 support
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
but not in despair; Persecuted‚ but not forsaken; cast down‚ but not destroyed;
Telegram is the best way to reach me
https://t.me/ttnnkkrr
If you have forum suggestions please submit a
Check Out WebWriter

Helgef
Posts: 4709
Joined: 17 Jul 2016, 01:02
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by Helgef » 14 Jul 2022, 03:38

tank wrote:At some point if V2 ever becomes dominant we may change the order and obvious purpose of ask for help and scripts and functions
Imo, this should be done to promote that v2 becomes the dominant version, given that this is the version being developed (and it being vastly superior). Once we leave beta that is.

Cheers.

User avatar
Ragnar
Posts: 611
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 15:25

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by Ragnar » 14 Jul 2022, 05:19

Helgef wrote:
14 Jul 2022, 03:38
tank wrote:At some point if V2 ever becomes dominant we may change the order and obvious purpose of ask for help and scripts and functions
Imo, this should be done to promote that v2 becomes the dominant version, given that this is the version being developed (and it being vastly superior). Once we leave beta that is.
I see it the same way. Sometimes things have to be forced in order to make progress. And all the recent changes regarding automatic v1-v2 detection and handling by Lexikos make this even easier to decide.

gregster
Posts: 8921
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 06:48

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by gregster » 14 Jul 2022, 09:41

There are a lot of v1 scripts (and users) in the world from almost 20 years, 10+ years of v1.1. To think that people will just learn a different language, start converting their good old reliable scripts, giving up their existing language skills, starting without a lot of resources which already exist for v1, just because we change the order, seems pretty unrealistic.

Eventually, (more) veteran users will start their new projects in v2 (and new users without that baggage will join), but many will have to rely on libraries which are simply not there yet; and they will have to learn a lot of new language syntax and concepts. That will be a slow process, which can't and imho shouldn't be forced. Instead, there should be encouragement, support and much handholding. Things like the new features lexikos introduced will help with that, but we should also realize that we need experienced v2 helpers, if we want to support it on a larger scale.

In v1 support, there is a lot of expertise and experience - combined with many resources, which we shouldn't throw away by trying to force people into using v2. People (including voluntary helpers) will need time to learn new things; veteran users need to be convinced of the new possibilities (which won't be necessarily essential or very appealing for many of them), before they switch. Changing forum order alone won't help with that.

Helgef
Posts: 4709
Joined: 17 Jul 2016, 01:02
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by Helgef » 16 Jul 2022, 05:37

To think that people will just learn a different language, start converting their good old reliable scripts, giving up their existing language skills, starting without a lot of resources which already exist for v1, just because we change the order, seems pretty unrealistic.
I agree, and I do not think anyone thinks this. I do not suggest anything drastic, just that we should strive for that anyone how is searching for a windows automation script language, finds autothokey v2, because of reasons already mentioned.
In v1 support, there is a lot of expertise and experience - combined with many resources, which we shouldn't throw away by trying to force people into using v2.
I agree again, and I do not think anyone suggests this either. You are the expert support @gregster, and you are already supporting v2 users, nothing thrown away or forced :thumbup:.

Cheers.

gregster
Posts: 8921
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 06:48

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by gregster » 16 Jul 2022, 07:32

Helgef wrote:
16 Jul 2022, 05:37
In v1 support, there is a lot of expertise and experience - combined with many resources, which we shouldn't throw away by trying to force people into using v2.
I agree again, and I do not think anyone suggests this either. You are the expert support @gregster, and you are already supporting v2 users, nothing thrown away or forced :thumbup:.
I guess you have me confused with someone else. :think:
Ragnar was speaking about things that have to be forced sometimes - I still don't think that this applies here. Of course, this can mean a number of things...

Helgef
Posts: 4709
Joined: 17 Jul 2016, 01:02
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by Helgef » 24 Jul 2022, 04:34

I didn't confuse you with someone else, I just thought you read in too much from Ragnar's comment about forcing.

Cheers :)

swq
Posts: 20
Joined: 07 Jul 2022, 12:12

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by swq » 18 Aug 2022, 14:36

I asked this question mainly because there's no clear announcement of any kind, not to mention the date, that v2 will become a main version in the future and one shouldn't develop new programs using v1. I remember it was the case when python 3 came out. They started announcing it many YEARS before last new feature was added to python 2. It was super clear. It was announced well in advance. That was repeated so often that it became irritating. And yet the conversion was FAAAR from flawless. At this point, by analogy, I can't see people investing their time and effort to transit to v2. Why bother to rewrite old programs, why bother to write new ones with v2 dealing with 2 ahk interpreters (one for legacy code), different syntax and paradigm when v2 will probably never be stable/main version? Please don't treat it as a rant about ahk development. More like lack of communication and clarity about the future of the project.

Helgef
Posts: 4709
Joined: 17 Jul 2016, 01:02
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by Helgef » 23 Aug 2022, 03:59

Why bother to rewrite
I do not understand why people keep repeating this about rewriting. Nothing needs to be rewritten. You can just write new code in v2.
v2 will probably never be stable/main version
v2 is stable.
Python.
Python this, python that, what does it have to do with AHK? Python is good because of its user libs, not language or standard lib. AHK is good because of its standard lib (automation/hotkeys etc), not because of its user libs or language. V2 and V1 standard libs are more or less the same, V2 has better language than V1 which will result in better user libs for V2.

Cheers

Albert Schenning
Posts: 23
Joined: 03 Jan 2022, 14:40

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by Albert Schenning » 23 Aug 2022, 10:29

I don´t understand why people think v2 is not stable, what problems are they having ? Can somebody please give example(s) of what you mean by that so it can be checked by the development team. Autohotkey is constantly being improved but that doesn´t mean it isn´t stable. I think 99,99% of the users will never find a bug in v1 or v2.

quaritexa
Posts: 32
Joined: 09 Nov 2017, 21:03

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by quaritexa » 24 Aug 2022, 12:49

swq wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 14:30
My second question is if AHK v2 eventually become stable will it be the default AHK version right away? Will it be the end of support for AHK v1?
I've been writing ahk2 scripts for >5 years now. It is stable.

AHK_user
Posts: 515
Joined: 04 Dec 2015, 14:52
Location: Belgium

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by AHK_user » 25 Aug 2022, 04:48

Just yesterday, I was helping somebody with a V1 script, and I noticed that all of his errors where related to features that where changed and improved in v2, so if he would use V2, these problems would not occure or the script would give an error.
- Confusing if command parameter is text/expressing
- Mistyping of variable names

It is indeed a transition barrier that we have a lot of amazing large V1 scripts and libraries, but I clearly see to many advantages in V2.
(I still have a 30 000 lines script running on my work, still wondering if I ever manage to switch it to V2 :think: )

lexikos
Posts: 9560
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 04:07
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by lexikos » 26 Aug 2022, 18:14

gregster wrote:
14 Jul 2022, 09:41
... they will have to learn a lot of new language syntax and concepts.
Such as? Please explain.

gregster
Posts: 8921
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 06:48

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by gregster » 26 Aug 2022, 19:29

lexikos wrote:
26 Aug 2022, 18:14
gregster wrote:
14 Jul 2022, 09:41
... they will have to learn a lot of new language syntax and concepts.
Such as? Please explain.
All these changes are not more than of cosmetical or trivial nature? https://lexikos.github.io/v2/docs/v2-changes.htm

Perhaps :ugeek: , but for large parts of our user base, I am afraid, that won't be true. Not only casual AHK users still confound legacy and expression syntax in v1; and for some, AHK is the only programming language they've ever used. Alone the length of the 'Changes' document will already scare some people away.

Sure, legacy goes away - which is great, but the transition from v1 to v2 will cause similar confusion - for many users, not for all. Our user base is quite heterogenous. I am myself a dilletante who gets along, I have probably learnt the basics of at least two dozen programming languages since the 80's (sometimes I had to, sometimes I wanted to), probably more - but most I have already forgotten. I will also learn the basics of v2, and perhaps of a few languages more. But I am usually not the guy who asks for help. I try to find out for myself, and I will bungle some code until it works somehow. But the majority of our help seekers is not me, and it is not you. That's what we should be aware of.

I wish v2 all the success it deserves, but there is no automatic just because its language design is superior. My guess is that it will be a longer process until a majority uses v2 (along with v1 or exclusively), for various reasons. I wouldn't mind though, if I am proven wrong.

badWithUserName
Posts: 11
Joined: 03 Feb 2022, 09:07
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by badWithUserName » 26 Aug 2022, 20:24

If Adventure IDE worked as well with v2 as it does with v1, v2 would probably take off. That tool itself is what took me from simply copying forum code to actually understanding the language and getting creative with it.

Post Reply

Return to “AutoHotkey Development”