Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Discuss the future of the AutoHotkey language
User avatar
submeg
Posts: 326
Joined: 14 Apr 2017, 20:39
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by submeg » 27 Aug 2022, 03:35

badWithUserName wrote:
26 Aug 2022, 20:24
If Adventure IDE worked as well with v2 as it does with v1, v2 would probably take off. That tool itself is what took me from simply copying forum code to actually understanding the language and getting creative with it.
I've been using AHK Studio and SciTE4AHK. Are these compatible with v2? I've yet to look into v2 at all; I've got about 30k lines to convert...
____________________________________
Check out my site, submeg.com
Connect with me on LinkedIn
Courses on AutoHotkey :ugeek:

Helgef
Posts: 4709
Joined: 17 Jul 2016, 01:02
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by Helgef » 27 Aug 2022, 05:52

submeg wrote:I've got about 30k lines to convert..
Why do you need to convert this code?

badWithUserName
Posts: 11
Joined: 03 Feb 2022, 09:07
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by badWithUserName » 27 Aug 2022, 10:41

submeg wrote:
27 Aug 2022, 03:35
badWithUserName wrote:
26 Aug 2022, 20:24
If Adventure IDE worked as well with v2 as it does with v1, v2 would probably take off. That tool itself is what took me from simply copying forum code to actually understanding the language and getting creative with it.
I've been using AHK Studio and SciTE4AHK. Are these compatible with v2? I've yet to look into v2 at all; I've got about 30k lines to convert...

S4A's v2 highlighter works, but is buggy, and its debugger works with v2. It's just not at all as feature rich as Adventure. Sigh.

guest3456
Posts: 3453
Joined: 09 Oct 2013, 10:31

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by guest3456 » 27 Aug 2022, 12:23

i still use AHK Basic 1.0 for my main project

shrug


Helgef
Posts: 4709
Joined: 17 Jul 2016, 01:02
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by Helgef » 27 Aug 2022, 12:51

i still use AHK Basic 1.0 for my main project
Excellent :D.

I will never convert my working v1/c/python/whatever programs to v2.

Cheers.
Spoiler

lexikos
Posts: 9494
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 04:07
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by lexikos » 27 Aug 2022, 18:22

@gregster Like you said, some people are scared away by the mere perception of difficulty. I think that vague and exaggerating statements like the one I quoted are a bigger problem than what actual difficulty a user might encounter migrating from v1 to v2. It gives an impression something like the difference between two dissimilar languages, when in fact v2 builds upon the same basic concepts as v1, but focuses its syntax on expressions.

The majority of the individual changes in that list are of a trivial nature; but there are many of them.

just because its language design is superior
Summing up the changes in such a trite way devalues them, and may give a false impression to any uninformed person reading it. Even just the removal of legacy syntax, and putting expressions in its place by default, is a significant improvement to usability. It is not some theoretical concern about language purity or similar. There are also hundreds of individual improvements that have nothing to do with language design.

User avatar
boiler
Posts: 16709
Joined: 21 Dec 2014, 02:44

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by boiler » 27 Aug 2022, 19:11

Helgef wrote: I do not understand why people keep repeating this about rewriting. Nothing needs to be rewritten. You can just write new code in v2.
You may not have imagined the scenarios in which code is used that would require some rewrites if a switch is to be be made. My real example: We use AHK on a daily basis to automate various applications (installed software or web-based) in a particular industry. At some point, the same application will need to be automated again for a different customer, so we have a library of scripts that we re-use, usually with some modification due to differences between our customers’ uses of the applications or updates to the applications themselves. In addition to our library of scripts for each application/customer, we have one core library class that is the backbone of the other scripts.

We haven’t considered the possibility of switching to v2 too seriously because there would need to be a rewrite of our core library class (or a new version would need to be written in v2, if you prefer), and it’s large enough to not be a trivial effort. And that v2 version of the class could only be used with new applications we haven’t automated yet. We couldn’t use it with the scripts written for our existing applications unless we rewrote those scripts for v2 as well. We somewhat regularly add new features or make improvements to our core class. If we were to carry both v1 and v2 versions of the class, we would have to maintain both versions or just let the v1 version fall behind and be less capable than the v2 version, even though it would be used much more often than the v2 version for quite some time.

So we are an example where we might really like to make the switch to v2 so we could be using the superior version on a daily basis, but there isn’t a good business case to be made to make the switch, at least not now. I have heard of much more mature industries that continue to write new code in languages that are considered dinosaurs today for the same reason, so I doubt this is an isolated example.

gregster
Posts: 8886
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 06:48

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by gregster » 27 Aug 2022, 19:48

lexikos wrote:
27 Aug 2022, 18:22
Summing up the changes in such a trite way devalues them, and may give a false impression to any uninformed person reading it.
Well, in that case I am very pleased that at least I could contribute some statements which you - with a unique insight into all the changes - could use to set the record straight.
I might even have some trite half-sentences left in me, which could serve a similar noble purpose, if you wish to feature them in the future.

edited

guest3456
Posts: 3453
Joined: 09 Oct 2013, 10:31

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by guest3456 » 28 Aug 2022, 02:26

i just realized today while doing some conversion that my interest in v2 faded after the removal of variable/expression derefs inside strings

this was nice to have available, if only for a month:

Code: Select all

MsgBox("Hello world this %var% worked inside a string. I believe 2+2=%(2+2)% worked too")

Helgef wrote:
27 Aug 2022, 12:51
Spoiler
hello sir, glad to see you back


Helgef
Posts: 4709
Joined: 17 Jul 2016, 01:02
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by Helgef » 28 Aug 2022, 03:24

@boiler, I do not think we are in a disagreement :thumbup:.

Cheers.

User avatar
tank
Posts: 3122
Joined: 28 Sep 2013, 22:15
Location: CarrolltonTX
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by tank » 29 Aug 2022, 10:09

Helgef wrote:
27 Aug 2022, 05:52
Why do you need to convert this code?
because in any workplace that has any form of IT governance, application upgrades require conversion/migration. it is simply not an option to maintain conflicting versions
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
but not in despair; Persecuted‚ but not forsaken; cast down‚ but not destroyed;
Telegram is the best way to reach me
https://t.me/ttnnkkrr
If you have forum suggestions please submit a
Check Out WebWriter

gregster
Posts: 8886
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 06:48

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by gregster » 29 Aug 2022, 10:20

When I worked for a big american car manufacturer, they just didn't upgrade some systems for 20+ years (although they added new software from time to time; of course the interfaces between old and new software were non-existent or bad - that's what you had students for: migrating data manually). Perhaps it's different now. 🤷‍♂️
But I have seen similar things in other companies, it's not that uncommon.

User avatar
tank
Posts: 3122
Joined: 28 Sep 2013, 22:15
Location: CarrolltonTX
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by tank » 29 Aug 2022, 10:26

gregster wrote:
29 Aug 2022, 10:20
When I worked for a big american car manufacturer, they just didn't upgrade some systems for 20+ years (although they added new software from time to time; of course the interfaces between old and new software were non-existent or bad - that's what you have students for: migrating data manually). Perhaps it's different now. 🤷‍♂️
my statement stands. it is rare to maintain differing versions of any software. if the upgrade iscumbersomee and doesnt carry security or regulatory compliance implications it often remains as is. like mainframes lol
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
but not in despair; Persecuted‚ but not forsaken; cast down‚ but not destroyed;
Telegram is the best way to reach me
https://t.me/ttnnkkrr
If you have forum suggestions please submit a
Check Out WebWriter

gregster
Posts: 8886
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 06:48

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by gregster » 29 Aug 2022, 10:36

Indeed, that's how it should go - but for one reason or another, all kinds of "alternative ideas" get actually chosen as options.


Re AHK, I think we are still not mainly talking about business applications (although it's great that some companies, or doctors, or sound engineers use it today). For the home user with a 5, 100 or 15000 line script, it is often not necessary to translate it; they can casually transition into v2, and just use it for new scripts. In a business environment, like boiler's above, things might look very different. Then again, if a company uses AHK to a bigger extent, I assume that the maintainers are more skilled than casual AHK users.

To avoid misunderstandings, I'd recommend to make clear which group we are talking about (if it's not already obvious), because their expectations, skills and requirements usually differ a lot.

neogna2
Posts: 586
Joined: 15 Sep 2016, 15:44

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by neogna2 » 01 Sep 2022, 11:47

For me converting my v1 scripts to v2 was a handy way to learn v2 bit by bit. I started with the simplest and smallest and then gradually more complex scripts. It felt similar to working through coding tutorials but with the difference that the end result was scripts (and functions, templates, ...) I know I will continue to have use for, since I was already use them in v1. People learn in different ways of course, but worth a mention.

AHK_user
Posts: 515
Joined: 04 Dec 2015, 14:52
Location: Belgium

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by AHK_user » 01 Sep 2022, 12:00

neogna2 wrote:
01 Sep 2022, 11:47
For me converting my v1 scripts to v2 was a handy way to learn v2 bit by bit. I started with the simplest and smallest and then gradually more complex scripts. It felt similar to working through coding tutorials but with the difference that the end result was scripts (and functions, templates, ...) I know I will continue to have use for, since I was already use them in v1. People learn in different ways of course, but worth a mention.
@neogna2 My method to learn v2 was to make a v1 to v2 convertor. Have you tried it out?

neogna2
Posts: 586
Joined: 15 Sep 2016, 15:44

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by neogna2 » 01 Sep 2022, 15:21

AHK_user wrote:
01 Sep 2022, 12:00
@neogna2 My method to learn v2 was to make a v1 to v2 convertor. Have you tried it out?
Yes very useful, thank you for working on it. I still ended up converting a lot of my v1 code manually (learning by doing and repetition!) but it is great that everyone has a converter like that as an option.

SOTE
Posts: 1426
Joined: 15 Jun 2015, 06:21

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by SOTE » 01 Sep 2022, 21:51

Helgef wrote:
27 Aug 2022, 05:52
Why do you need to convert this code?
I mostly agree with the opinions given by Tank. This issue should not be so casually underestimated, be it for the average user or for those using AHK in a workplace or business situation. It's problematic for a lot of people to use and maintain different versions of things. To include, if they are not working with those different versions every day, they will naturally begin to forget, get confused, or feel uncomfortable. "Yeah, so in this version, it's done this way. But, in that version, have to do it that way."

That some people want to or can more easily jump between versions, might even be more the exception, than the rule. And, this could be more reflective of how deeply such people are into programming or the amount of time they have to invest, versus casuals.
gregster wrote:
29 Aug 2022, 10:36
Re AHK, I think we are still not mainly talking about business applications (although it's great that some companies, or doctors, or sound engineers use it today). For the home user with a 5, 100 or 15000 line script, it is often not necessary to translate it; they can casually transition into v2, and just use it for new scripts.
It's not just about the size of the scripts made, but we might want to look at the total number they might have or how often they are tweaking/updating those scripts too. I believe there is a disconnect in the thinking that a transition is so casual. The "home user" still must invest time and effort to learn the new version. For those using v1 scripts, a significant percentage may feel a strong urge or pressure to convert them over because of also not wanting to be bothered with keeping different ways and conflicting versions in their mind. The situation could be viewed more as a permanent migration over to the new version, versus attempting to "dip their toes" or go back and forth between versions.
Last edited by SOTE on 01 Sep 2022, 22:04, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
submeg
Posts: 326
Joined: 14 Apr 2017, 20:39
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by submeg » 01 Sep 2022, 22:01

Helgef wrote:
27 Aug 2022, 05:52
submeg wrote:I've got about 30k lines to convert..
Why do you need to convert this code?
won't the function calls be different? v2 will be backwards compatible?
____________________________________
Check out my site, submeg.com
Connect with me on LinkedIn
Courses on AutoHotkey :ugeek:

Helgef
Posts: 4709
Joined: 17 Jul 2016, 01:02
Contact:

Re: Will v2 ever hit the stable state?

Post by Helgef » 02 Sep 2022, 06:31

No, v2 isn't backwards compatible.

@SOTE, I genuinely just wonder why @submeg wants to covert 30000 lines of v1 code to v2.

Cheers.

Post Reply

Return to “AutoHotkey Development”