Reply Template for an accurate and compleate answers

Propose new features and changes
Martin10
Posts: 21
Joined: 08 Mar 2021, 20:53

Reply Template for an accurate and compleate answers

Post by Martin10 » 10 Mar 2021, 17:43

Hi, These Forum sites are of GREAT help for all computer users, Specially for computer user beginners.

To greatly improve the help and the presentation of this help, A MINIMUM reply information template must be implemented.

This template will organize the help reply in a coordinated and in a sequential format, This fact will increase the effectiveness of communication and will help the person asking for help to understand the reply answer.

Also, this template will facilitate the person given the help to include as much information possible in an organized manner.

This minimum answer template will be the beginning of training or conditioning all the EXPERTS and all the persons to improve their help skills.

NOTE:
When a person is a begging in any topic EVERY word and every DETAIL counts for smaller that it is, These small details is what will make the difference that the person understand the answer.

When a person reaches out to any forum is because this person already spend hours trying to resolve the issue by themselves so at this point the STRESS levels are super hi and if the answer from the forum is limited or not explicit and clear ... this fat is equal to adding salt to the injured and the stress levels of the person asking for help explodes and the hopelessness sinks in and that's the reason most persons think COMPUTERS are hard to learn.

Computer work is easy, what is wrong is the teaching and the implementation of computer knowledge, that's why the need of computer FORUMS in the firs place.

Thank you and I hope you truly understand my request and my point of view.
Martin10
Posts: 21
Joined: 08 Mar 2021, 20:53

Re: Replay Template for an accurate and compleate answers

Post by Martin10 » 10 Mar 2021, 17:50

Sorry I am talking about providing clear help and my post have several misspellings.
swagfag
Posts: 6222
Joined: 11 Jan 2017, 17:59

Re: Reply Template for an accurate and compleate answers

Post by swagfag » 10 Mar 2021, 21:59

look, we're humans, not robots.
every query is unique in its own way and what every reply ends up looking like depends on multiple factors:
  • attitude of the poster(low effort posts == low effort replies)
  • attitude of the replier(some like lengthy discussions, some prefer brevity)
  • knowledge level of the poster(if a certain degree of competence can be established given the nature of the query, no one's gonna bother explaining everything down to the very basics. that would be a waste of time for both parties - mine having to write it and theirs having to read it)
  • knowledge level of the replier(some may wish to go into details but cant. and thats fine.)
  • context of prior discussions/replies(no point regurgitating what's already been said)
  • ... yada yada ...
  • ...

is because this person already spend hours trying to resolve the issue by themselves
that might be the case for you, but imma tell u, in 3k something ask for help posts, ive seen my fair share of people waiting to be spoonfed, reaching out for handouts. especially in the gaming section
Computer work is easy, what is wrong is the teaching and the implementation of computer knowledge, that's why the need of computer FORUMS in the firs place.
thats cool and all, but im not here to teach u computer work is easy. im here to answer ahk-specific questions(and very occasionally questions in other areas)
bottom line, if u make people jump through hoops trying to submit a reply, one of three things will happen:
  • they just straight up delete the template and reply anyway(uve changed nothing except add 1 additional superfluous step to the reply process)
  • if above isnt possible, they straight up dont bother replying(great, now whatever salty answer they would have posted that would have perhaps even slightly helped u move on with ur research on ur own, u wont get to see)
  • occasionally the template will make sense and theyll actually use it

Sorry I am talking about providing clear help and my post have several misspellings.
no need to fuss about it, just edit ur post ;)
Martin10
Posts: 21
Joined: 08 Mar 2021, 20:53

Re: Reply Template for an accurate and compleate answers

Post by Martin10 » 11 Mar 2021, 15:13

Hello, swagfag The template is to provide better and improved help, Because Most forums and most "EXPERTS" have an ATTITUDE exactly like yours, Just step back and READ your reply, If a person has the initiative to HELP others, this help should be as complete and as much helpful as possible.

Right now because of the deficient teaching and the vague help answers, a person has to come back to the forum over and over again, EVEN worse the forums count FAILURE as their success most forums put out their statistics on how many million persons they have help! BUT these statistics on how many post a forum helps these are frustrated computer users. And because a forum is composed and run by computer EXPERTS these experts are failing every time a person has to open a new post and wait hours for a half-baked answer.

And yes before you mentioned I am working to make computer learning easier and much better than currently is... give me a few months and I will gladly demonstrate that my point of view it's better than what we have right now.

Also ... My opinion is to try to fix or improve what we have now, The strong points of view are not intended to insult or disrespect anyone in a personal manner, But the issues have to be exposed and debated as strongly as possible.
gregster
Posts: 8916
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 06:48

Re: Reply Template for an accurate and compleate answers

Post by gregster » 11 Mar 2021, 15:52

Martin10, I can't see that our "experts" (which are just volunteer AHK users of a variety of skill levels who donate their free time to help fellow community members out) are somehow out of touch with users of beginner level. Especially in the AHK community, we seem to have a lot of helpers who are not programmers by trade, but who started to learn programming at some point in their professional career and who do not hesitate to ask for help themselves, if they don't know an answer.
They come from all around the world, from different backgrounds and their age ranges from teenagers to 70+. They surely have their individual styles in helping, but I think that this is a good thing - and that forcibly trying to change that would have a detrimental effect.

Of course, it's up to each individual supporter to decide how much they will spoonfeed even to requesters which don't show much motivation, but usually we don't require much from the ones seeking help. If someone gives a detailed description of a problem - and also directly or indirectly indicates their skill level - they usually get all the help that supporters are able to give at that time (not every supporter has the time to provide full or perfect code all the time), and deem appropriate. Of course, difficult, unique or incoherent questions might take some more time than easier ones. That the help process for absolute beginners can be rocky at times can't be prevented, imo. Naturally, we don't all use same language, and some basics need to be established first, in order to provide efficient help. (Vague questions can only lead to vague answers.)

We also don't present statistics about our "success" - but generally the feedback from the ones getting help seems to be quite good. You are quite still new to AHK and our forums, so I would invite you to observe a little more and of course, ask your questions, and see how it's actually working.

You are entitled to your opinion, but imho your criticism above seems exaggerated - and doesn't do right by our helpers; also, its (not really constructive) tone might not necessarily help your goal.
This is a community of volunteers which exists in a similar fashion since 2003 - and I think we are generally quite happy how it is working now (of course, we had our share of problems in the past). It is shaped by the volunteers, by the ones who voluntarily donate their free time (some for more than a decade) and actually contribute to it consistently. To broadly criticize our system of doing things (or even change it substantively) as an absolute newcomer, like you did, it will need a little more substance and detail than your generalized observations about online teaching or support. (So far, I have no idea what you actually have in mind.)
At least that is my personal view - as someone who has learned a lot from these forums myself, since I first discovered them 14 or 15 years ago.

I am personally immensely thankful to all members of our community for their contributions.
If you have seen other forums, you will know that this is not how things generally work out over an extended period of time.
Martin10
Posts: 21
Joined: 08 Mar 2021, 20:53

Re: Reply Template for an accurate and compleate answers

Post by Martin10 » 11 Mar 2021, 17:19

If you read your own answer you agree and recognize my points of view, But somehow you try to JUSTIFY deficiency as a way of LIFE...., When I mention "forum" I'm not referring only to this forum All forums are essentially the same, For me to WISH for better help RIGHT away IT IS an improvement already, As you said you been here for more than 14 years, and you have not been capable to see the deficiency of not just this forum but all forums allover the web.

You mentioned that my comments are not appreciated by other forum users... I don't see their comments or protest... let them speak out if they feel my comments and opinions are out of line. Again my opinion and my request are meant to bring new improvements, if this opinion are not under stud as meant that is none of my faults.

Yes this is my 3rd day working with AHK the reason I took interest in AHK is that I am working in a way to make computer teaching and computer learning more PRECISE right from the beginning and less cumbersome, This way the person will learn all the BASICS from the beginning and each new computer user will be less dependent of faulty help.
gregster
Posts: 8916
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 06:48

Re: Reply Template for an accurate and compleate answers

Post by gregster » 11 Mar 2021, 17:40

Well, we still don't know what you actually have in mind. At this point, there is simply not much to discuss.
So far, I only reacted to the overdramatization and generalization that I saw, and the - in my eyes - accusatory tone of your posts above. I still recommend to dial back a bit on that.
If community members are interested in this, I am sure that they will chime in and participate in a discussion - but you should also try to understand how these forums actually work.
swagfag
Posts: 6222
Joined: 11 Jan 2017, 17:59

Re: Reply Template for an accurate and compleate answers

Post by swagfag » 11 Mar 2021, 19:31

If a person has the initiative to HELP others, this help should be as complete and as much helpful as possible.
and in an ideal world devoid of mere mortal limitations such as time, desire and proclivity for helping, id probably agree with u. it would be cool to have threads completely and definitively answered. that way even far off into the future will people benefit from the spoonfed answers without having to themselves engage in the thread trying to understand the answer and the circumstances that lead to it being formulated as such.

unfortunately, we dont live in an ideal world. we live in the real world, where all these things i mentioned are actually a thing. theres only so many threads u can answer in a day. for some this number may be higher, for others maybe not so much. but at the end of the day if i had to choose between giving 1 detailed response and 5 not as detailed ones, id rather help those 5 get on with their lives.
let them speak out if they feel my comments and opinions are out of line.
i didnt think they were out of line, hence i didnt speak out against them. im simply pointing out my perceived flaws with ur approach. u can try to convince me otherwise though(but so far ure not doing too well ngl :lol: )
if this opinion are not under stud as meant that is none of my faults.
well, u gotta agree, at least to a degree, it has to be partially ur fault too.
i, for one, still have no idea what u envision that supposed template to exactly look like and apparently neither does gregster.
maybe u can provide an example? uve got 20 posts already, at least one of them has to have been satisfied with an answer by this point - take it as a basis for ur sample template.
the forums count FAILURE as their success most forums put out their statistics on how many million persons they have help!
u know, we have this Unanswered Posts filter in the hamburger menu. this is my metric for how well a forum is doing and ignoring threads that dont require a response(clearcut bug reports, shared scripts and functions, announcements) and those in other languages(hey, if u decided it was easier for u to post in sugondese, ull just have to deal with the fact that theres a limited pool of sugondese ahk experts), id say we're doing pretty alright. i cant say for sure uve received help, but at least u cant complain about having been ignored and thats already miles better than what some other forums have to offer.
a forum is composed and run by computer EXPERTS these experts are failing every time a person has to open a new post and wait hours for a half-baked answer.
not to single anyone out in particular, but ud be surprised to hear how often we threads about things the documentation already explains infinitely better than anyone else ever could(eg arrays) or about changing the same code snippets lifted from some cheat site and despite all that, PEOPLE. STILL. KEEP. FREAKING. ANSWERING. THEM. if that aint true dedication to the craft, i dont know what is
I am working to make computer learning easier and much better than currently is... give me a few months and I will gladly demonstrate that my point of view it's better than what we have right now.
thats a valiant undertaking and i applaud u for it. dont burn urself out though
User avatar
boiler
Posts: 16767
Joined: 21 Dec 2014, 02:44

Re: Reply Template for an accurate and compleate answers

Post by boiler » 11 Mar 2021, 20:24

Martin10 wrote: You mentioned that my comments are not appreciated by other forum users... I don't see their comments or protest... let them speak out if they feel my comments and opinions are out of line. Again my opinion and my request are meant to bring new improvements, if this opinion are not under stud as meant that is none of my faults.
Since you asked, while I am fine with you expressing your opinions, I find them to be not at all reflective of the sentiment we see from users asking for help on this forum. The great majority of posters on the forum, including myself, are very grateful for the help and support of the community in the manner that they have been providing it.

The members here have not been shy in pointing out when a poster’s style or approach could be improved, so I don’t believe there is some general and unexpressed view that is aligned with yours. If anything, it is mentioned how there is a better culture in this community than in a lot of other coding forums.

So far, your posts in this thread and others have been more worthy of criticism than those we typically see around here. There is no need to be so dramatic or accusatory towards the forum members. Perhaps some of that can be attributed to cultural differences, but we have members from all over the world, and your posts already stand out as quite negative and antagonistic in tone. Others who take a similar approach usually choose not stick around here long. If you plan on being a regular participant in the forums, you may want to modify your approach.

I hope this feedback has been as helpful as you were hoping it might be when you asked to hear what people had to say.
Post Reply

Return to “Wish List”