Nuisance BAN

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tank
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Nuisance BAN

04 Dec 2019, 14:59

In 2013 when i started this forum instance it was due to one of many heavy handed actions by a site administrator and an intentional censoring of threads contradicting him. I too am known to be heavy handed. Let it be known that I tried for almost a year to stay out of it. I tried politely advising him. I tried a firm tone. Now the situation is as thus.

The public conflict between another admin along with one of the few people that actually contribute to AHK code and this person has ended up in a place where for the good of the community I must take nuclear action and put an end to it.

I could quote and stroke each side of this argument in great detail. Not only do I not care it isn't in fact important. what is important is that in order to stop it someone has to go. it is a simple matter of value to AHK and I am the final arbiter.

Several months ago I now i told Jeeswg Not to make choose. I told him i believed it was possible to be a constructive member of this community.

I Tank choose solely on my own exclusive discretion without being requested by other parties hereby for the first time i believe in the history of this forum find that while Jeeswg did not explicitly violate any rule, has made himself a nuisance with his constant arguing and banter. he does more harm to this community than any good he may have done. I find that he seems to seek out and draw conflict where none might otherwise exist. In order to extinguish this ongoing escalating conflict. I do with great regret but with no other option left BAN YOU Jeeswg FROM THIS FORUM. I believe this decision must be made and that Jeeswg is the lessor value of the parties involved. I do not make judgement on which party is righteous. Only that of multiple persons at the party it is one vs many and therefor 1 will loose.

For the love of god. in 15 years this is the first time that someone has been asked to leave without violating the rules. I hope this day never happens again
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
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swagfag
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Re: Nuisance BAN

04 Dec 2019, 20:23

nuisance ban? so that's a thing now :facepalm:
if its one of those ip permabans that also ban u from cloudflare, the online docs and download hubs, then double :facepalm: :facepalm:
if its a two week to 30d temp account ban, then whatever, guess he can take a chill pill for the time being

but no matter how u look at it, this is bad optics all around. "we will ban u if ure annoying lol"
i get that u made the forum and while i cant know for sure what kinda back and forth uve had with him or what shenanigans he's been up to in the DMs with other people, i cant agree with this course of action - banning him for having zany ideas about things and rubbing a select few the wrong way(the whole bit about evaluating his worth also seems totally bonkers to me)

not even in the case of imeime/user, whom i hardly ever saw eye to eye with, did i ever advocate for his banning. and i dont here either. a permban is undeserving. u should reconsider(collectively, probably...)
TAC109
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Re: Nuisance BAN

04 Dec 2019, 21:44

I’m sad that this has happened.

While I found many of this posts incomprehensible (verbal diarrhoea?) I know that he helped lots of people in the 'ask for help' forum, and many of these have thanked him for his advice. I guess he is 'different' in a compulsive sort of way, and liked to have everything defined and nailed down, hence his 'lists'.

I haven’t seen anything malicious in his posts, but he has obviously rubbed up some administrators the wrong way.
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SOTE
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Re: Nuisance BAN

04 Dec 2019, 23:01

This does look excessive and it's sad that it came to this point. Jeeswg was a significant contributing member of the AutoHotkey community. I never got the feeling there was anything malicious about him or that there was any bad intent directed at the community, but rather he liked and was very passionate about AutoHotkey. Part of why such a ban is sad, and doesn't give a good look.

If possible, I would hope the ban could be lifted or made just temporary, and a better way could be found to resolve the dispute. Which from what I know, is something very, very specific. Maybe there is something else going on, but it looked rather trivial, from the outside looking in. Something which seemed like the parties involved could be more mature about handling or just ignore each other.
Hellbent
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Re: Nuisance BAN

04 Dec 2019, 23:47

swagfag wrote:
04 Dec 2019, 20:23
nuisance ban? so that's a thing now :facepalm:
if its one of those ip permabans that also ban u from cloudflare, the online docs and download hubs, then double :facepalm: :facepalm:
if its a two week to 30d temp account ban, then whatever, guess he can take a chill pill for the time being

but no matter how u look at it, this is bad optics all around. "we will ban u if ure annoying lol"
i get that u made the forum and while i cant know for sure what kinda back and forth uve had with him or what shenanigans he's been up to in the DMs with other people, i cant agree with this course of action - banning him for having zany ideas about things and rubbing a select few the wrong way(the whole bit about evaluating his worth also seems totally bonkers to me)
+1

Apart from anything else. I've never seen him be anything but cordial in any discussion ( regardless of his or others stances on things )
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JoeWinograd
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 00:05

Hi tank,
I can't speak to his "public conflict" with "another admin" or with "one of the few people that actually contribute to AHK code" (I haven't seen either one), but I can say that he has been very helpful to me in numerous threads. He is knowledgeable and courteous, always replying to my posts with a positive attitude and helpful solutions. I understand that you are responding to behavior that is completely different from what I have experienced, but from where I sit, he has been a valuable member of this AutoHotkey community and I do not like to lose his contributions. Regards, Joe
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nnnik
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 02:37

One of his last actions to take wad rallying people in DM to force the admins to make him a mod. He also annoyed joedf to reopen the github discussion over and over again.
I too thought that banning him could have been avoided - especially since gregster recently joined the team and he was sure he had a solution.
What remains now is the hope that we can prevent anything like this in the future.
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gregster
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 02:48

nnnik wrote:
05 Dec 2019, 02:37
I too thought that banning him could have been avoided - especially since gregster recently joined the team and he was sure he had a solution.
What remains now is the hope that we can prevent anything like this in the future.
The hope is there.

Since I was mentioned explicitly:
Of course, next time I will make sure that I use 5 days much more efficiently (even when I am ill). I think I underlined multiple times that I believe that pro-actively certain things could have been handled differently and that we, as a team, have to try to do better in the future to prevent things like this.
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nnnik
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 03:33

You are not to blame for this - sorry if I accidently implied it. I planned that it would take you at least a month or 2 before you could take any significant actions.
I just wanted to show that the staff was actually desperately trying to find a solution which doesn't involve a ban.
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gregster
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 03:47

Thank you for the clarification, nnnik!
dharya_91
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 04:15

Thanks for the informationb that you have shared with us.
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Chunjee
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 09:05

Shame. His delivery is not the greatest. But the content was often valuable.
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tank
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 11:44

TAC109 wrote:
04 Dec 2019, 21:44
I found many of this posts incomprehensible (verbal diarrhoea?)
lol


swagfag wrote:
04 Dec 2019, 20:23
nuisance ban? so that's a thing now
NO!!! i want that to be clear. it was an extreme action on my part to an ongoing escalating problem. Every possible alternative has in fact been exhausted.


SOTE wrote:
04 Dec 2019, 23:01
This does look excessive and it's sad that it came to this point. Jeeswg was a significant contributing member of the AutoHotkey community.
It is something i literally resisted as long as i could



swagfag wrote:
04 Dec 2019, 20:23
i get that u made the forum and while i cant know for sure what kinda back and forth uve had with him or what shenanigans he's been up to in the DMs with other people, i cant agree with this course of action - banning him for having zany ideas about things and rubbing a select few the wrong way
Those select few equate to AHK authorities. like it or not there is a hierarchy. while i have an overarching duty to the entire community to provide a safe place, my primary duty is to support the admins, moderators, developers. They in turn support the rest. Almost a year has been spent by multitude of people trying to defuse this. That has failed. I have barely been involved. this was definitely not personal but the situation was toxic to the many of the boards leaders. It falls on me to sometimes make tough choices. I have not issued some directive to our mods and devs saying they can't unban him. but there must be a line in the sand that says go no further. basically its like this. there are kids at a party. 7 of the kids really hate him but the kid follows them around. do i send 7 home or 1. I know that's not an accurate metaphor but you get the point. Here is a more accurate one. If you wake the dragon you get eaten. poke the bear you better have a bigg gun. etc. NO ONE is happy with this sort of response. but i assure you it was quite unavoidable.


I respect every response above. i know and understand where it comes from. I chose this action with a heavy heart and wanted to make sure that any repercussions are directed solely at me. This would have been easy if he were bad for all.
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
but not in despair; Persecuted‚ but not forsaken; cast down‚ but not destroyed;
https://www.facebook.com/ahkscript.org
If you have forum suggestions please submit a pull request
Check Out WebWriter
Thanks Tank :thumbup:
burque505
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 14:48

Please reinstate jeeswg.
Thank you.
Regards,
burque505
guest3456
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 15:20

i'm probably one of jeeswg's biggest critics. i am wholeheartedly in support of tank's actions.

i'm surprised to see this thread simply because my last talks about this subject were with gregster, and he urged me not to stir the pot, and i assumed that there were internal discussions about how to keep the peace going forward. i had pretty much relented, save for maybe one or two more replies in another of jeeswg's mindless Ask For Help threads. "verbal diarrhea" is a good description of many of his posts.

the number of developers who contribute to the AHK source code are very very few. Helgef was one of them. i don't know why Helgef left, but IF it was due to jeeswg, then thats a much bigger shame than this ban action. this is a user who also accused Lexikos and Helgef of engaging in "backdoor" discussion on v2 topics, because the discussion took place on github instead of the forums here. i mean cmon really.

one of jeeswg's very first threads on this forum, was about how he was being banned or moderated at stackoverflow. he was pretty much making the same complaints about them, that he is likely making now against the mods and admins here. this person has a history of not fitting in, of not trying to fit in, and not listening to anyone who tells him anything. not only is it 7 against 1 like tank is saying... we have proven history of a whole other website which has come to the same conclusion about this person.

of course the optics of banning look bad. but, this is clearly an extreme one-off case. as tank said, its not like this is common place, and happening all the time, and it has never happened prior. at some point, what are you meant to do when someone continues to troll incessantly, non stop, and refuses to listen to anyone, including admins? you warn them. they don't listen. you warn them again. they still don't listen. you ban them. will they listen then?

mods and admins are volunteers. they only have so much time. are they meant to waste their time constantly having to deal with one particular user, time and time again? shape up or ship out

i would've preferred jeeswg stayed and adjusted and listened. i'm not against an unban. and if admins decide to unban, i will support that too. but you'd think after you've been banned, that it might make you wake up, and modify your behavior. i'm pretty certain that if jeeswg is re-instated, we will see no change in his behavior.

finally, i do not care if i've posted this link before, but since this seems to be the official discussion thread about this user, i'll leave this here:
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/tscc3e5eujrsEeFN4/well-kept-gardens-die-by-pacifism

swagfag
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 19:20

tank, i dont hold anything against u, but u have to understand us regular users dont have any insight into the behind-the-scenes of this whole CF, so bits along the lines of "nuisance ban" and "[each side's arguments] not [being] in fact important" read exactly as described in my original post.
well, having now partially heard at least one side of the story and taking the complete lack of a retort on @dharya_91's part(whom i can only assume is, in fact, jeeswg. if ure some kind of a long time lurker that just so happened to have decided to post in this very thread for the first time, then ignore what i just said.) into account, it does make it somewhat more palatable. i havent faltered on my firm antiban stance on posts(and verbal diarrhea, as u put it), which may be perceived as trollish, however, in light of his other transgressions, i reckon some degree of punishment is in order. i just dont think permabanning and bricking his (read-only) access to the forums is it

guest3456 wrote:
05 Dec 2019, 15:20
i'm pretty certain that if jeeswg is re-instated, we will see no change in his behavior.
perhaps he can redeem himself... perhaps not

what a bizarre situation
gregster
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 19:31

I am pretty sure that dharya_91 is not jeeswg - perhaps legit, perhaps a spammer (bait-and-switch or delayed signature spam); we have a lot of those (admittedly, not the best topic to stay under the radar ;) - but many play the long game )
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boiler
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 20:07

verbal_dharya_91 perhaps? :shifty:

I'll see myself out.
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tank
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 20:20

guest3456 wrote:
05 Dec 2019, 15:20
i don't know why Helgef left
I actually didn't know about this
guest3456 wrote:
05 Dec 2019, 15:20
accused Lexikos and Helgef of engaging in "backdoor" discussion on v2
I remember this. in its full absurdity but somehow he only got worse after this
We are troubled on every side‚ yet not distressed; we are perplexed‚
but not in despair; Persecuted‚ but not forsaken; cast down‚ but not destroyed;
https://www.facebook.com/ahkscript.org
If you have forum suggestions please submit a pull request
Check Out WebWriter
Thanks Tank :thumbup:
guest3456
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Re: Nuisance BAN

05 Dec 2019, 20:55

swagfag wrote:
05 Dec 2019, 19:20
having now partially heard at least one side of the story
i just want to clarify that my post is not "one side" (if that's what youre implying, because you responded directly after me). i have never formally called for his ban. at one point 1-2 years ago, someone reached out to me, asking if i think he should be banned, and i said no, we should ignore, etc. after countless dramas with him, including him pestering me over PMs, my opinion changed. but i never took the initiative to actually ask anyone to take any action. i'm just a little ole user here, with no more power or say than anyone else. based on tank's first post in this thread, i assume that jeeswg has been bothering others for some time.

from nnnik's post in this thread, its obvious the recent sitewide poll for a new github subforum was due to jeeswg. i guess when jeeswg posted his thread initially making the suggestion, and got unanimous opposition against his idea, he then decided his next attempt would be to pressure joedf until he gave in and offered a Fair Vote via poll. is this the kind of nonsense volunteer admins and mods should be dealing with, simply because a spoiled user doesn't get his way?
swagfag wrote:
05 Dec 2019, 19:20
perhaps he can redeem himself... perhaps not
perhaps. if so, it would be welcome, but i'm not holding my breath. he obviously didnt learn after being banned from stackoverflow
swagfag wrote:
05 Dec 2019, 19:20
however, in light of his other transgressions, i reckon some degree of punishment is in order. i just dont think permabanning and bricking his (read-only) access to the forums is it
and that's fair. and the takeaway from my link is, mods should be free to be quick to act, and perhaps this ban is such a quick act (not really though since this has been going on for years). and then when the dust settles, he is given a second chance, and we see where it goes. and if it continues, ban again. in the meantime, we've lost Helgef for reasons yet unknown


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