Gods don't exist.

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Cuadrix
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Gods don't exist.

20 May 2019, 23:12

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Gio
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Re: Gods don't exist.

21 May 2019, 10:05

So... A philosofical debate it is? :shock:

Gladly Accepted! :beer:

Of course God exists :geek:

:arrow: I see meaning and purpose everywhere i look. It could all just be the same, same physics, same chemistry, no magic at all required in the world, just binary states dictating lifeless causes and consequences. But alas! there is magic! And a lot of it! There are colors, and none of them are in the light waves. There is joy and it goes far beyond mere bodily reactions. There is hope in our souls, and it transcends our mortality.
swagfag
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Re: Gods don't exist.

21 May 2019, 11:20

i, too, question the existence of god myself, every time i have to break out the debugger
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Cuadrix
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Re: Gods don't exist.

21 May 2019, 11:52

There is hope in our souls
There is no such thing as a soul. There is only our brain, which produces our consciousness. When the brain dies, the consciousness dies, therefore you as a person cease to exist.
That's the same for all conscious and unconscious organisms on this planet. Assuming anything supernatural is the cause of consciousness just because we still haven't discovered enough about it, would be called blind faith, and religious blind faith is almost definitely because of indoctrination.

:idea:
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Gio
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Re: Gods don't exist.

21 May 2019, 12:47

Now that is a good speech, much more insightful of your views than a mere dot :beer:

The phrase in the quote is clearly more of a poetic saying than a real logical statement. You can swap the word soul for mind if you would like to. There is hope in our minds. That being said, escalating a single word to conclusions of blind faith and indoctrination, that certainly came from your brain, not mine. Perhaps it is how you view religion at the moment, but it is called a strawman fallacy when one extrapolates an idea into something else and then attacks it.

:arrow: On the very nature of the concept of a soul: it is a word that embodies many meanings. To some people, the soul is the mind, while others believe it to be of a supernatural substance. There is also a possible connection to the concept of personality or identity. Baby John is certainly not the same brain as John the adult. Yet, we tend to say they are one and the same. If Elder John is later plaged by dementia and dies of old age, which of them should reach the afterlife?
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Cuadrix
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Re: Gods don't exist.

21 May 2019, 20:40

Baby John is certainly not the same brain as John the adult. Yet, we tend to say they are one and the same. If Elder John is later plaged by dementia and dies of old age, which of them should reach the afterlife?
Good question. I don't know.

So how do you know a god exists?
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Re: Gods don't exist.

22 May 2019, 01:49

For the german speaking guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLEtkmVUMfU
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nnnik
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Re: Gods don't exist.

22 May 2019, 02:57

Everything exists for a reason because it was created by simple cause and effect. If you name a specific effect you will eventually find the cause to blame.
People tried to use that both as a proof and a proof against the existence of gods.

I'm a bit more straightforward with this - whether a god exists or not is completely irrelevant to me and any beliefs I might or might not hold in the future.
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Cuadrix
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Re: Gods don't exist.

22 May 2019, 03:12

nnnik wrote:
22 May 2019, 02:57
Everything exists for a reason
Everything exists because of a cause, and the chain reaction from that cause is why everything is how it is.
Nothing exists because of reasons, only because of a cause.
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gregster
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Re: Gods don't exist.

22 May 2019, 03:15

I am with George Carlin on this one:
[...] I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us. Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.[...]
But be warned, if you are easily offended. George's general views on religion were much harsher than that.


My personal view is:

Jesus seemed like a cool guy with a good message... but not at all like the god of the old testament. I wonder what happened there... did Jesus talk to his dad before changing the old corporate identity? Well, some people change and get kinder when they get their first kid, you know, shifting priorities and all that. Would make god relatable somehow.

But then again, the teachings of Jesus seem to be ignored by many christians and church leaders. So, I guess you just choose what you like from the often contradicting message buffet that is called the bible (it's similar with other religions)... on the other hand, many atheists don't believe in murdering, lying and adultery, without even believing in hell (or heaven). And why not? "Be nice to each other" makes perfect sense to a mildly rational mind, even without the threat of eternal hell or the existence of god(s). Then again, it seems you can make a good buck by promoting the prosperity gospel... and money still seems like the most important god, when I look around. I wonder what Jesus might have said about that.
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nnnik
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Re: Gods don't exist.

22 May 2019, 03:22

Cuadrix wrote:
22 May 2019, 03:12
nnnik wrote:
22 May 2019, 02:57
Everything exists for a reason
Everything exists because of a cause, and the chain reaction from that cause is why everything is how it is.
Nothing exists because of reasons, only because of a cause.
That doesnt contrdict my statement in the slightest but ok.
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Cuadrix
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Re: Gods don't exist.

22 May 2019, 03:31

nnnik wrote:
22 May 2019, 03:22
That doesnt contrdict my statement in the slightest but ok.
Yep, I just wanted to be more specific.
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garry
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Re: Gods don't exist.

22 May 2019, 04:11

Life Of Brian (1979) - clip: "You're all individuals"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY

Code: Select all

Brian -"You don't need to follow me . You don't need to follow anybody . You've got to think for yourselves. You're all individuals"
All   -"We are all individuals"
Brian -"You're all different"
All   -"Yes , we're all different"
Some  -"I'm not!"

Monty Python Deductive Reasoning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9PY_3E3h2c
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Cuadrix
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Re: Gods don't exist.

22 May 2019, 07:48

garry wrote:
22 May 2019, 04:11
Life Of Brian (1979) - clip: "You're all individuals"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY

Code: Select all

Brian -"You don't need to follow me . You don't need to follow anybody . You've got to think for yourselves. You're all individuals"
All   -"We are all individuals"
Brian -"You're all different"
All   -"Yes , we're all different"
Some  -"I'm not!"

Monty Python Deductive Reasoning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9PY_3E3h2c
Simply beautiful. It touches my brain.
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Gio
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Re: Gods don't exist.

22 May 2019, 13:16

Cuadrix wrote:
21 May 2019, 20:40
So how do you know a god exists?
By quoting your last statement: Good question. I don't know.

But i do believe. Do you want to know my reasons for this? I probably can't even name them all, as the whole of my life ammounts to my current beliefs (as with anyones). But i can point you a few good reasons. First, i see meaning and purpose in the universe, and it is not related to a particular phenomenom whose cause i cannot point out: rather, this meaning and purpose i see is in the whole. Also comes into play the fact that I have personally witnessed faith related events whose outcomes i cannot find wordly causes for. I admit to my limitations, thereby i will not call these "proofs", but i do consider them as personal evidences. And just like anyone whose intelect is to be considered reasonable, i do evaluate any possibilities based on evidences when absolute proofs are not present. Do you not? Think twice: there are no ultimate proofs for the theory of the big bang: just evidences (i.e.: the observable universal expansion).

Now, from a few rational pro-theism arguments on this debate i personally like, i guess i would point out the Fine-tuned Universe argument as quite an interesting one. How would you go about refuting it?
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Re: Gods don't exist.

22 May 2019, 21:52

Cuadrix wrote:
21 May 2019, 11:52
There is hope in our souls
There is no such thing as a soul. There is only our brain [...]
@Cuadrix Interestingly, as I see it, the previous statement could be expressed as follows:
We are, at heart, nothing more than 'our' brain.
I consider, for my part: there is nothing but our world (this time I can say: our). Even (and particularly?) when it escapes us. Or better: the world is the measure of our existences.
I'll talk for "nothing"'s sake.

You actually seem to suggest that nothing other than bodies exist - or, maybe, I should refine: nothing other than bodies and languages. Whatever, it would be paradoxically so reassuring...
I don't agree at all.
Descartes and Sartre...
For me, you missed two things:
- the exitence of the freedom.
- the existence of the desire.
To clarify what I have in mind: when there are both in synergy - freedom and desire, so - we can call it generosity (as gift and "self"-expression).

Cuadrix wrote:
21 May 2019, 11:52
[...]our brain, which produces our consciousness[...]
I'd like you to explain to me by what miracle a brain can produce a consciousness - because we need more than just a fine word: a totalizing reality, being, undecomposable, not limited (with no other limit than itself), caracterized by its minehood, i.e. always-already-"mine", always-already-intentional-endeavour etc. The neurologist hand can get inside "my" brain; my hand cannot get "inside" "my" consciousness.
"Je pense donc je suis." ("I think, therefore I am."). Existentialy (in the boredom, the anguish, the despair, the regret...) the statement appears in a ontological turn and is a question: why there's something instead of nothing? There's no answer to this question, there will never be one. One can explain the why of a way of being not the being as being. The reply (as opposed to: the answer) to the absurdity of this question is our life as such, I can't say otherwise.
And don't get me wrong, it is useless to mention hideous, revolting experiments with mices, controlled by joysticks with help of ICT-implants in the brain. If you want to destroy the freedom as being you must destroy the humanity of world: maybe the collective denial, refusal of self in fascist masses, the "totalitarism", the Capital trying to look at itself in the mirror could give a vague idea of what a world without freedom could be.

Btw Flipeador opened a while ago this related discussion: Do you have any religion? | What's your religion?
In it, Flipeador identifies himself as atheist agnostic and skeptical. But, one could ask him to get to the bottom of the matter - what is the nature of the "gnosis" of other people?
Descartes - the evil genius: and if people on the streets were only sophisticated dummies? If not, should the existence of others remains a pending problem, a regulatory concept? Why I feel I have an indestructible basis when I see people on the streets to say that there are free conscious beings and not only brains? After all, when the water evaporates I don't say: the water desires the sun.
Yet, a priori, there's no scientific experience, there will never be one, brain researches or whatever, that will be able to give the other to intuition because by definition, this intuition (that is this ineffable alienation of our world for each and every one of us when, for example, we feel ashamed of us because of the other) is the other as such, as other. Other (and, in particular, free other people) are in our heart, in the "depths" of our being (existence).
Gio wrote:
21 May 2019, 10:05
There are colors, and none of them are in the light waves. There is joy and it goes far beyond mere bodily reactions. There is hope in our souls, and it transcends our mortality.
So what is the ontological status of these things intrinsically unknowable in the absence of 'personal' intuition, these "qualia" - like a color, precisely? Why it is an erroneous preconception that the color is merely "subjective", "psychological" - and while the light waves only should be considered as real, objective? Qualia are not "psychological images" in a black box. Every one who is shy, and became red with shame know it...
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Gio
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Re: Gods don't exist.

23 May 2019, 11:07

Why it is an erroneous preconception that the color is merely "subjective", "psychological" - and while the light waves only should be considered as real, objective?
It has been suggested many times that a certain being could exist whose subjective reality (or rather, how it experiences reality) would be vastly different to our own (even though the universe is the very same). A fictional recuring example in scifi movies is a being capable of "seeing the fourth dimension" or rather "seeing time". Another more earthly example is a being the size of bacteria, whose entire lifetime is not enougth to cross a few "gigantic" grains of sand. You can see a person when you look at one, but this bacteria-size-creature would probably just see a very huge ammount of cells, with their organelles and their little structures operating right in front of it.

Also, when we do consider that our reality is just a "subjective reality", colors are not the only "subjective" things we can point out. Rather mostly everything is actually subjective: Even a solid block of steel may look like a continuous substance, but it is now known to us that the actual nucleus of an atom vs it's "force fields" is like the size of a fly compared to the size of a soccer stadium. This could lead one to think that in reality, the "solid" block is "really" over 99.9% empty. Yet it feels solid and it looks completely solid, so i ask: would it be more accurate or reasonable then to start acting as if a solid block is just an empty space?

Rather i think our reality is indeed REAL to us. It is highly objective, not "merely subjective". The consequences of acting as if colors simply "do not exist" can lead you to crash your vehicle by trespassing a red light. The consequences of considering that a solid block is just empty space can cause you a lot of harm. You body is adapted to YOUR reality, and an incoming falling block will do you harm. However if we do consider this "seemingly subjective" human reality as the real objective reality, we get to experience the life as humans in a most rational way: it allows us to predict things accurately. It may be true that gama rays can penetrate steel plates without breaking them, but for the most part, little to nothing else can. A reasonable person is indeed one that believes in their eyes and acts in response to our human perceivable reality (except if they are experimenting with gama rays, of course).

On the subject of reality, let's pick another example: could you play a game if all you could really see was the code? I say NO: The "reality" of the game, a "virtual reality", which includes it's physics, objects and etc, is the only reality that truly matters to the gamers experience. Why is it that you would pick a different reality to your own as the only "true reality"? Why is it that you would consider our reality to be "not real"?

Consider a superior being whose intellect is so huge that it can take decisions and see and operate the world 1.000.000x as fast as an average man. This is a big number, but it is certainly tiny compared to an "infinite". But how would this being experience timelapses? If a sentence spoken by you takes 5 seconds to be said, it would take over 57 days in the beings "subject time experience". He, if human, would probably be too bored to even wish to speak to you. And it's not just speech, everything would be just too slow to him, except for a few very fast things to us which would probably happen at the very level of his "experience time". His reality, as in his experience of reality, would thus probably be vastly different to our own, and we are only considering the time factor alone. But only this factor being present and a human would be able to perform "miracles" such as completing a surgery before a single drop of blood falls. So, is this beings reality "more real" than ours? If only a being even smarter and more powerful than the one in this example could really "experience true reality", than i would say only a god's reality is a real reality and it is completely futile for us humans to even consider our world real, but i actually disagree with this point: if there are infinite possible realities, there are infinite realities and each of them is real in their own way.
Wikipedia on Protagoras the greek philosopher wrote:Protagoras also is believed to have created a major controversy during ancient times through his statement that, "Man is the measure of all things", interpreted by Plato to mean that there is no absolute truth but that which individuals deem to be the truth.
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Flipeador
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Re: Gods don't exist.

23 May 2019, 12:33

I would just like to make my position clear, I am an atheist because I think that no God exists, not at least as man imagines, that is, any God associated (or not necessarily) with some religion is nothing more than an invention of man, in his eagerness to try to explain the unknown, or give false hope. I am so convinced of this that I bet my life on eternal suffering if it is not true. In addition, also clarify that I am totally against all religion (respect for people, not their religion).
On the other hand, I am an agnostic because I do not rule out the possibility that there may exist some God (or gods) of whom we know absolutely nothing about, and who was able to start everything.

I had seen an interesting discussion about the existence of God on YouTube, but I don't remember right now, I'm writing from my cell phone and it's a PITA, if I find it I'll edit my post.
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Gio
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Re: Gods don't exist.

24 May 2019, 10:21

Offtopic: is that Neil deGrasse Tyson dancing in your avatar? :mrgreen:
Flipeador wrote:
23 May 2019, 12:33
any God associated (or not necessarily) with some religion is nothing more than an invention of man, in his eagerness to try to explain the unknown, or give false hope.
That is a very broad claim. Have you ever tried to put on the shoes of a conceptual god in your mind and then think about what you would do with the world? Would you become a ruler or king and then use all your powers to change everything in the human world to a heaven-like state where there is absolutely no hunger nor pain? The idea that god has chosen not to interfer with the creation in any drastical way once the basis of it's foundations had been set in place is a most intriguing one. Why don't even just one of the many super advanced alien civilizations (if they do exist among the trillions of stars as many believe, of course) ever tried to contact us and transfer some form of life-changing technologies that could solve the issues of poverty and hunger in the world? Do they not care? Is that a proof that they are not there? Or perhaps maybe they prefer the story to unfold itself into the richness of our history as independent beings? But what if they did contacted at least some people in the past, just to make sure they could transfer some useful knowledge without interfering in the broad sense? What if someone did get the honour of meeting God or at least some highly advanced alien civilization? What type of ideas would they probably have provided to this blessed human?
In addition, also clarify that I am totally against all religion (respect for people, not their religion).
While i can agree to your opposing of some religions, i cannot agree to the idea of opposing ALL religions. When one is completely true to themselves and then proceeds to seek a rational spiritual evolution from the bottom of their heart, the path taken will, at the very least, lead the subject to experiment with many profound metaphysical and ontological concepts, and the results of these questionings can lead the subject to a much more rich vision about the many aspects of life. Life can be highly mechanical at the muscle level, biological at the cellular level, chemical at the molecular level and... also very spiritual at the human level.
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Re: Gods don't exist.

24 May 2019, 12:35

1. When God is very fast and bores at a 57-day sentence. Then we could use the forum here and now to write a script that modifies a sentence so that it hears a specific sound once a day. So we could arouse his interest! We could also increase the frequency by one million ...... hmmm is such a frequency possible at all? Is God bored? Since everything has come into existence that we know, he has to be terribly bored. The only event known to me in the speed of God - was then the big bang!

2. 2. We are amazed by things we can not explain! In logical consequence (associative task, for example, IQ test). Complete the following series! - Gods -> God -> THE ONLY GOD -> ?? ???.
No God?!. And what do you mean? I mean that is the logic of the ruling opinion better described as the logic of the rulers.

I read that one imagines that at the beginning of the series were not the gods. One thinks that the first humans worshiped the forces of nature without seeing gods behind them. I understand that then as if "No God" was the beginning of the series! "No God - Gods - God - THE ONLY GOD ..... Is this conceivable as a human being? First the Big Bang to gods and then separation to individual suns (God)? Then, and this is very amazing, our ancestors would have been a lot ahead of us! (Logically, but only those who accepted the gods!)

From the point of view of a point on an infinite line. It will never find that he is part of a straight line. (my association to the life of brian)

I love such discussions! I always have new ideas (associations)!

Don't beat me, I didn't laugh about anyone here. I only smile about my associations!

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